Revelation
MF Blume (mfblume@ns.sympatico.ca)
Tue, 18 Feb 1997 00:44:08 -0800
Anthony D Barnett wrote:
> Regarding the debate of Pre, Post, Mid-Tribulation. I have a hard time
> seeing how Matthew 24 applies to us and how it fits into the "schedule"
> of events. I have a very strong Pre trib cousin that says that Matthew
> 24 wasn't written for us. I also have a very strong Post trib friend that
> believes the opposite. I myself can identify more with the Middies. So
> can anyone give me a little insight on what they believe? Keep in mind
> I'm not looking to try and "decifer" the date of his rturn. I just want
> to see some other opinions regarding this chapter.
Hi Anthony. I will endeavour to BOTH show you what pretribbers believe
and what postribbers believe while showing you why I feel
pretrib and midtrib to be in error. If you have any detailed questions,
or wish me to clarify something I have said, please ask.
Here are the controversial verses in Matthew 24 which divide the groups.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall
the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and
the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens
shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in
heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they
shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with
power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a
trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four
winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
"Pretribbers" say that Matt 24 MUST refer to Jews, because it speaks of
the "elect" being gathered together AFTER the tribulation of those days.
"Posters" say the "elect" is the church and these verses describe the
rapture. We will rise to meet Him in the clouds. And they note that
Jesus is seen COMING in clouds in Matt 24:30 just as the rapture is
going to have us meet Jesus in.
1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up
together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
So "WHO ARE THE ELECT"? That is the question.
Are they the Jews? They HAVE BEEN called the Elect:
Are they the CHURCH? Yes, they are called the elect, too.
1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God
the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto
obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy
and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness
of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
So the question remains, "Who are the elect?"
We must ALSO ask what the following refers to:
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass,
then look up, and lift up your heads; for your
redemption draweth nigh.
Is this the rapture? Is it regarding the church?
Ever hear that song...
"Signs of the times are everywhere,
There's a brand new feeling in the air,
Keep your eyes upon the eastern skies,
Lift up your heads, redemption draweth nigh."
We sing that in lieu of the fact that the reference
is made for the Church and the rapture.
IF it is INDEED the Church, then the church must go through
tribulation.
Here's why:
Read what Luke 21:28 said.
"WHEN THESE THINGS BEGIN TO COME TO PASS" redemption
draws nigh. WHAT THINGS? What things must BEGIN to come
to pass when redemption draws nigh?
We must go back in the chapter and read ALL the things
listed until the very last verse BEFORE the one we read.
The last few are these:
Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in
the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress
of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for
looking after those things which are coming on the earth:
for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
These are signs that occur AFTER the tribulation according
to Matthew 24. Luke 21 parallels Matthew 24.
Luke 21:28 (mentioned when redemption
draweth nigh) is paralleled with Matthew's version who
said the same thing in this manner:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these
things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
What is this verse saying? Is it our blessed hope -
the rapture?
In speaking of the same event that is "at the doors"
when "all these things" are seen, Jesus said:
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man,
no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
But of WHAT day and hour? What would you take these
words to refer to? The rapture? IF SO, then
"all" the things preceding verse 33 must occur BEFORE
we can say the rapture "it is near even at the doors".
If "IT" is the rapture.
You must study to find out what "IT" is. And what
the redemption in "redemption draweth nigh" is. If you feel
it is the rapture, then Jesus spoke to His followers who later
became the Church in Acts 2, not unbelievers
who never followed Him .
Pretribbers say He spoke to unbelievers who never followed Him.
If He spoke to His followers, the ELECT is the Church. If
you feel it is not the rapture but something AFTER the rapture,
then it was Jews alone He spoke this to, and is nothing to do with the
Church.
I feel it is the CHURCH this is written for.
When we see "ALL THESE THINGS." Now, pretribbers believe
this is speaking to Jews. But we have just seen that Luke 21:28
has been taken to speak to the church (us!), and Matt 24:33
is Matthew's version of the same statement.
So, it says when we see "ALL" these things. Not "SOME" but "ALL".
What things? "All" things that He spoke
about previous to this statement INCLUDING:
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days
shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her
light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers
of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man
in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of
heaven with power and great glory.
So signs that occur AFTER the tribulation are what must occur
"BEFORE IT IS NEAR EVEN AT THE DOORS."
If Matthew 24 has nothing to do with us, as your cousin stated,
then who does these references refer to?
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same
shall be saved.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted,
and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations
for my name's sake.
For Jesus' name's sake. They cannot be outside the CHURCH.
Only the Church has Jesus' name. Only the Church will EVER
have Jesus' name. And for His name's sake these people
will be delivered up.
If pretribbers are going to use the following verse for rapture
preaching...:
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not
the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
...then they better ealize they are supporting the thought of
post trib, because THAT DAY is referring to the following:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things,
know that it is near, even at the doors.
And "ALL THESE THINGS" which we must "see" to let us know
"it is near, even at the doors" INCLUDES ....
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days
shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her
light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers
of the heavens shall be shaken:
So, to summarize this, let me ask what are "all these things"
we must see that we might "know that it is near, even at the
doors"? Watch yourself! He said, "ALL THESE THINGS". And
if He said ALL these things then we simply cannot just take a
couple verses at the BEGINNING of Matt 24, as most do, and forget
the verses 29-31 which speak about AFTER THE TRIBULATION. For Jesus
listed a whole series of events from verse 4 through all the way
to verse 32. AND these events include events AFTER the tribulation.
And Jesus said "ALL THESE THINGS" must occur before
"it is near even at the doors". All these things must occur
BEFORE "that day and hour" which no man knows, will occur (v. 36).
--
In Christ,
Mike Blume
mfblume@ns.sympatico.ca
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/mfblume/mblume.htm