Revelation

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Timothy Litteral wrote:
 
> Praise the Lord all!
> 
> Let me preface this by saying that it looks as though I
> have been at odds with Rev. Blume (felt that way at times
> too) but I am not.  From what I can tell from the exchanges
> that we have had God has given him the Spiritual side heavy
> on salvation and has given me the
> literal stuff heavy on symbolism.  

Agreed.  We are simply discussing thoughts and nobody is against
anybody.

> I see and appreciate the
> things that Rev. Blume writes and like I have said time and
> agian I agree with much.  I think however that neither of
> us, or the two of us together have it all.  

Amen and amen.  THAT must be kept in mind as we share thoughts.
God deals through the BODY of the CHURCH and no single individual
will ever get it all.

> I mast say that
> if we can achieve a "melding" that there will be much
> gained.  I offer things to think about.

Amen!!

> Rev. Blume:
>  If taking the little book is salvation, then what might
> the nature of the contents of the little book be with
> redemptioon in mind?  It must be tied to redemption, for
> taking the book initially certainly and plainly involves
> redemption.
> 
> Me:
> I believe that the contents are the names of the saints of
> the Church
> with the names of the 144,000.  I believe that this is the
> Lambs Book of Life.

Actually the contents are the seals and vials and trumpets.
But your thoughts are certainly worth considering.  We must
find out WHY the book of life would be the same book in 
Rev 5, though.

> Rev. Blume:
> ..is due to the fact that the taking of the  book is indeed
> referring to redemption.  We must work from THAT
> standpoint...
> 
> Me:
> If this is the Book of life it changes the face of the
> interpretation of the entire book of Revelation.  Jesus
> recieves the "coupon" for His property, us.  It has seven
> (the number of judgement) seals on it.

Why the "number of judgment"?  That is one thought I never 
heard about before.  I always felt 7 means COMPLETE.  7 seals
implies completely hidden or sealed.

And Jesus' 7 eyes means He can see anything no matter how 
completely sealed it is.  Complete insight.  That is why we 
cannot know these things without Him giving them to us.
That brings rise to the need of REVELATION.  It must be revealed.

> Rev. Blume:
> ...All seals broken off.  If the taking of the little book
> is redemption, what would the fully opened book represent?
> 
> Me:
> This is GREAT!  Once the seventh seal is broken and the
> book can be opened then Jesus can CLAIM HIS PROPERTY.  The
> property has to be where He is and then He proclaims the
> contents of the "book" which is the "reciept" for His
> Bride.  This is a double edged sword since if you are found
> in the book then you are caved but if youare not then you
> are left behind.

I like that.  That is why I said in Chapter 10 the Mighty Angel is
Jesus who stands on land and sea since He takes possession and roars
as a lion, since He is the lion of the Tribe of Judah.  Standing 
on land with the book open implies POSSESSION.  And the thought of
opening us up through trials, depicted by the opening of the seals,
leads to Christ's total manifestation through us as believers.  The 
obstructions of fleshliness have been broken off.  And He is fully
Lord.  He has been Saviour, but then He becomes LORD.

Rev 10:1  And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, 
clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his 
face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
Rev 10:2  And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set 
his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,

> Me:
> When the seventh seal is opened then can begin the
> execution of sentence for those that are in Christ AND for
> those that are not.
> The sentence has already been passed and has only awaited
> the "fulness of time" for execution.  

Think of what you are saying in a spiritual tone rather than
a literal endtime.  You are actually saying what I am saying,
only you relegate it to a certain year, when I take it
to represent every age of beleivers, and the coming down to the
end of the breaking of fleshliness typified by trials read about.
I could even use your own words to describe that!

The "fulness of time" is when the "gentile" world, the carnality we had
taken with us from our lost period of living into the new life,
which must be removed before Christ can have His way in our lives
completely.

Like the older Israelites who lived in Egypt before the children 
were born who walked with them through the wilderness, our old ways
often still cling to us after we are saved.  The younger Generation
represented our NEWNESS OF LIFE, while the older generation represented
the carnality from the world.  As we grow in Christ, that "GENTILE"
part (or "older generation" part of carnality) must grow weak
and the new man must grow stronger.  And only after the older generation
died (the unbelievers who did not think they could take Canaan) the
younger generation were able to enter Canaan.  It is interesting that
at the same time the younger generation, who had never
been circumcised, were then circumcised.  And God referred to it 
as a "second" circumcision as though the older generation and younger
generation were composites of a single person in need
of being circumcised a second time.  (Joshua 5:2, 6, 9).
By circumcising the children AFTER the older ones died we see the
note of rolling away the reproach of Egypt in a twofold picture.
The older ones were in Egypt and held Egypt's ways.  They were like
the FLESH that was in need of being circumcised away from the children.  
They were the reproach.

In like manner, the flesh and carnality we carry with us into salvation
is a reproach, for it is the part of that doubts terribly.  But that 
seems to be the natural experience of every new believer.  They simply 
need to grow.  And that means growth out of carnality and into spirituality.  
As we mature in Christ, we see our flesh grow weaker.  And our spirits 
grow stronger. (Now, I have seen people saved for years who were 
still carnal!  They did not mature at all!)

The FIRST circumcision would be the separation of our sins.
The SECONED Circumcision would be the separation of carnality at a much
later time in our walk.  There were two waters to divide.  Red Sea and
then Jordan.  And JORDAN crossing rewarded a memorial to be set up.  
Whereas Red Sea crossing did not.  It is a great thing to cross Jordan, 
for many are called but few chosen.  Many leave Egypt but few grow to cross
Jordan into Canaan.  Few grow to be truly spiritual, though it is for
every believer.

It is also like Ishmael and Isaac.  Ishamel was the older brother.  He
represents the carnal ity of a believer.  Carnality was with
us since natural birth.  And upon spiritual birth, the little brother,
the new man, is born.  Isaac.  Ishmael is still around, though.  And 
Ishmael persecutes  Isaac like our doubt and unbelief persecute the
new man.

Gal 5:17  For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the 
Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to 
the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Ishmael against Isaac.  Finally God told Abraham to cast 
out the bondwoman and her son.  Just like the older generation
dying so the younger ones could enter Canaan.  When our fleshliness
dies, the new man thrives!

Look at ALL the older brothers.  Cain, Esau, Ishmael, etc.  The older
always stood for the flesh.  The younger, the spirit.

So with ALL THE OVERABUNDANT references to such aspects of spiritual
maturity in the WHOLE BIBLE, why should revelation be different?
That is a good reason I feel the "times of the gentiles" simply represents
carnality.  And JERUSALEM represents the CHURCH (Heb 12:22, Gal 4:26).
And the final judgment is the end of Ishmael's persecution and the older
generation dies.  Such a message is certainly more important to the 
christian than the thought of the literal world ending, although the world
will end one day.  Think of the end of the world of carnality!!  when 
reading Revelation. These are just some cursory thoughts provided by 
inspiration of the Spirit while in prayerful study.

And the world is going to end.  True!  How much more should we get hold
of the Lord and see our carnal worlds end in Holy, inward judgment to be
ready for His second coming in the clouds!!!??

> This is not the FINAL
> judgement but is the judgment that comes at the end of the
> Church dispensation.  Every dispensation (age) ends with
> judgment.

Every christian experience matures into judgment against carnality!

Read your own thoughts that are beautifully listed above with the 
aspect of spiritual symbolism regarding spiritual maturity in mind.

-- 
In Christ,
Mike Blume
mfblume@ns.sympatico.ca
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/mfblume/mblume.htm