Women in the pulpit

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  REGARDING           Re: Women in the pulpit


Was Re: Judging

suprdave@lightspeed.net said:

>I don't see the Bible discriminating against women Pastors. Again, Pastor
>Marilyn Gazowsky is one of many women Pastors that are out there. I guess
>there is a difference in the minds of people regarding women Pastors and
>women preachers. But look as Pastor Marilyn's work. Tremendous in the city
>of San Francisco, CA. What can we say? She is an awesome woman of God! 

  I have no doubt she is an awesome woman of God.  However, let's be 
clear on the story.  This church was her husband's church when he 
suddenly passed away.  The UPCI attempted to get someone else to 
pastor that church.  No-one would take it up, and she, like Deborah in
the book of Judges, went for it and took the bull by the horns.  That 
church wasn't given her, she had to take it over, because no man would.
Does that make it the optimal course?  Her son took it over after her, and 
he turned into a dynamic man of God, also.  After a time, he faltered and 
has since fallen into error.  <personal testimony of a J-N Pent. who lives in
the city>.

  Besides, one seemingly good example doesn't prove the rule, nor does
it justify going against the word of God.

  This is not a question of  discrimination against women.  God has 
made it clear that there are requirements for the office of pastor,
preacher or teacher, and being male is one of them.  This is a 
functional difference between men and women, not an ontological 
difference.

 The scriptures are clear:

I Tim 2:
9   In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with 
     shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls,
or 
     costly array; 
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but

     to be in silence. 
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the 
     transgression. 
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in
faith 
     and charity and holiness with sobriety.

  A congregation sitting before a preacher and listening to the word of 
God is a situation where that congregation is in subjection to the minister
of the word.  Men are not to be subject to women, period.  Why would 
it be preached in the word that men are to be the head of household and 
then as soon as they get out of the house and into church, they are to be 
subjected to a woman?  That's not logical or biblical.    

  Why were the apostles all men?  Women were in the camp, and no
doubt they were very dear and important to the cause of Christ, but 
this is a clear example of  Christ's plan of leadership in the church.

  As for the scriptures not discriminating against women, that's true in
the sense that is generally meant.  After all, doesn't Galatians 3:28 say,
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is 
neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."?  That refers
to justification before Him, which is nil for everyone before repentance
and baptism, and full afterward.  

  My trinitarian cousin (used to be Jesus-name she said!) likes to point
to Deborah, who was a judge in Israel and led in battle.  Isn't that an
example of a woman taking authority?  You betcha!  And look at
her attitude toward a man who wouldn't take the authority of the Lord
into battle: Judges 4:9 "And she said, I will surely go with thee: 
notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour;
for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah 
arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh."  Deborah was very 
contemptuous of this man for his actions and for allowing him
himself and his army to be subject to a woman.  Israel was judged for
this.

  In fact that there was only ever one female judge in Israel and that it 
was during a time where they were up and down in their favor with 
God.  That speaks volumes about what God thinks about women 
usurping spiritual authority in general.

  And the last thing about Deborah: this was a Old Testament, historical
example and I believe it speaks a general truth.  It doesn't however, teach
us about the plan and hierarchy of the church.   I Tim. 2 and I Cor. 14
speak to that.

  I Cor 14:34-35 are also very plain: "Let your women keep silence in the 
churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are 
commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will 
learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame 
for women to speak in the church."  The context of the chapter is order,
subjection and discipline in the church.  The context is not to say that
women must not speak one word from the moment they come in until
they leave, but certainly, they are not to preach to men, nor to be leaders
in the church.

  Now, before you all think I'm a misogynist, nothing could be 
further from the truth.  I'm married to a godly woman, whom I 
respect tremendously.  I respect women in general, but recognize
that there is a difference between the genders, a difference that
the bible recognizes also.  Women can certainly teach other women
and children, of that there's no doubt, but the church and family
hierarchy is very clear.  Women can be used of God in an awesome
way and I don't intend to diminish that work, nor the worth of 
women in any way whatsoever.  The intercessory prayer 
(unbeknowst to me until recently) of the grandmothers and mothers 
in my church was a critical factor in my walk in the Lord.  How 
could God ignore the righteous prayers of those dear ladies?  More
to the point, how could I devalue their effort at saving my eternal
soul?  For me to do that would be to throw dirt on the work of God
and I can't do it.  

  I do think there's a bigger picture here, and "I" think it has to do
with the world's (read: principalities and powers) influence in the 
church and the world trying to influence the church.  This is my
theory, and what I discern from world.

  The prevailing culture alternately shows women subjected in 
a depraved way and in a near deified manner, and sends mixed messages 
to women and girls about who they are and who they ought to be.
Dan Quayle wasn't far wrong when he spoke about the poor cultural 
message given in the T.V. show, "Murphy Brown."  In the show,
the lead female character has a baby all by herself and basically stated
she didn't need a man to help her.

  If we can't teach children that men are the heads of families and 
authority figures in the home, what sort of havoc can be wrought
in the church?  I don't think it's too far fetched to say that if we 
allow women preachers and pastors, "we" won't need men and their
authority.  They'll preach the gospel "too hard", they won't be 
"loving enough,"  some of the characterizations made now about 
men's authority in the home.  

  In 1993, there was an ecumenical women's worship conference
(I'll get the full details tomorrow) where witches and "christian"
women held an women's communion service and worshipped a
female deity they called Sophia (sp).  Presbyterians from the PCUSA
went.  This is one of the seven mainline denominations that built
this country!  Is it too far to suppose that this is the ultimate end of 
this argument over women having authority over men in the church?
I don't know, but I think the argument is compelling.  

  Clearly, though, it is in the best interest of the devil to sow 
division and disorder in the church.  Imagine that, exactly 50%
of the church mad and angry at the other 50%!  Is there a 
better formula for disorder in God's church?

  The entire idea of women in the pulpit didn't form out of  a 
vacuum.  It came out of the world and the idea that any difference
between men and women can be interpreted as a slight toward
women.  The world likes to portray Christian women as bound
to a mean patriarchy that devalues them.  I ask you, the church,
is that true?  The answer must be no.  Women are harassed and 
coerced into unspeakable things in the world, but the true church
is a haven for women.  They are valued as children of God and
they are respected as worthy members of our community.

God bless you,
Brother Steven 

"Your spirituality is only as strong, as the smallest principle you 
chose to reject."
<can't remember who>