Tribulation

• Messages sorted by:[ date ][ thread ][ subject ][ author ]

More ammo. for you Anthony....  :-)


TRIBULATION

Timothy,

Let us say, for example, that your idea of a future tribulation
period is correct.  According to that thought (we are chatting about
the whole intro since we are chatting about Chapter 1 so far, right?)
the whole book of Revelation deals with a period known as the
"Great Tribulation."  That is why you say the church is not here after 
such and such a chapter.  You feel that is when "the" Great Tribulation
occurs.

So let us see the references to "tribulation" in chapter one.  This will
prove to be illuminating to all references to tribulation in Revelation.

Speaking of chapter 1, ther is an interesting note that John introduces 
the book in chapter one with inclusion of the following words:

Rev 1:9  I John, who also am your brother, and companion in 
tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, 
was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, 
and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

John tells the christian readers that he is their companion
in tribulation, in the kingdom and in the patience of Jesus
Christ.  He was in such "tribulation" due to the Word and the testimony 
of Jesus Christ which he held.  So we are to take it for granted 
that every reference to tribulation, the kingdom and patience of 
Jesus Christ must involve this forethought, since this is mentioned
before any other "tribulation" is mentioned in Revelation.

That should cause a pretribulationist to look awfully suspicious at 
their doctrine.  Revelation, a book wiritng about a tribulation period 
in which the church is not supposed to be here,  BEGINS by chatting 
about John, a member of the Church,  who is companion to those 
in tribulation who hold God's Word and the testimony of Jesus 
Christ.  Hmmmmmm.....

Notice something we can correctly conclude from Rev 1:9.  Whenever 
the twin thoughts of persecution for the "word" and the "testimony" of 
Jesus Christ are mentioned, it applies quite adequately to the Church 
member, with whom John was companion in.  It cannot involve future
people only, since John just said he was "our companion" in it, and that
was 2000 years ago!!!  You must include a guy who lived 2000 years ago
with the gang who are mentioned to be holding the Word and testimony of 
Jesus.

Was that the "Great Tribulation" John experienced?  Not according to you.
That day cannot satrt until the Church, of which John was a part, is gone!

So, lets look at other references supposed to be in the time of Great 
Tribulation acording to Mr. Litteral.

(Noticing little things like this reveals much!!)

Right in the middle of discussion about the Beast in Revelation 
13, John writes:

Rev 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not 
written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:9  If any man have an ear, let him hear.
Rev 13:10  He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: 
he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. 
Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Sounds like the words of Rev 1:9.  "Faith" of the saints would include 
the "TESTIMONY" of Jesus Christ, would it not?  WHat I beleive is my 
FAITH.  ANd that is my testimony.  A declaration of my faith.

John repeats the thought of the words of Rev 1:9 and applies them to 
believers' troubles all through Revelation. And do not forget that 
John said he was our "companion" in such things.

(Someone once said that John represents the church and therefore the
church is raptured before tribulation because John was caught up
at the sound of a trumpet in Rev 4:1.  I can more biblically use the 
same argument of John representing the Church by saying that he was 
the companion of all who suffer tribulation and manifest Jesus' 
patience who hold the testimony and word of God throughout Revelation 
and well into what you would call Great Tribulation.  Watch:)

What does Rev 13:10 mean?  It means that at that 
time (when the beast arises) the faith of the saints 
and the patience of the saints will be required.
John was our companion in the patience of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:11  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever 
and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the 
beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they 
that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Again this shows when the patience of the saints will be required.
During times when the saints shall face the inception of the mark 
of the beast.

In both Rev 13 and 14, it seems John is giving us a hint about how to
survive the tribulation as a christian.  He is saying, "Then will
be the time you believers better exert your faith and patience in Jesus.
You are going to need it then mor ethan ever!"  (Read those verses
again with Rev. 1:9).

Recall that Rev 1:9 mentioned "the WORD of God and the TESTIMONY of Jesus 
Christ." This is repeated by saying "who keep the commandments of God and the 
faith of Jesus" in Rev 14:12.

Even in the epsitles these terms are used for the Church:

1 Th 3:4  For verily, when we were with you, we told you before 
that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, 
and ye know.
1 Th 3:5  For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent 
to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted 
you, and our labour be in vain.

2 Th 1:3  We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as 
it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the 
charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
2 Th 1:4  So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of 
God for your PATIENCE and FAITH in all your persecutions and 
TRIBULATIONS that ye endure:
2 Th 1:5  Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of 
God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which 
ye also suffer:

"Patience and faith" in "TRIBULATIONS".  Enlightening is it not?
The same was said of John in Rev. 1:9 when he said he was the 
believer's companion in such things,
and that was 2000 years before the so-called great tribulation period,
about which is supposed to written throughout Revelation, in the middle of 
which saints are said to have experienced the faith and patience of Jesus!!!

This thought even shows up in Mr. Literral's idea of Revelation's reference
to 3.5 years:

Rev 12:6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath 
a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand 
two hundred and threescore days.

(3.5 years is mentioned above, in which Timothy says there
is no Church present.)

Same chapter ends by saying...

Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make 
war with the remnant of her seed, ....

[When di dthios occur?  In a 3.5 year speriod]

Rev 12:17b  ...which keep the commandments of God, 
and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

And here we see the dragon warring against believers who keep the 
commandments of God and have Jesus' testimony.  The same type of people
John claimed to be a companion of.  For the reference to the
commandments of God coupled with the Faith of Jesus is simply
a reference to the WORD of God and the faith of Jesus in Rev 1:9.

mmmmmm....  Ho w could John be a companion in the same type of tribulation
that "tribulation saints" will be part of when no member of the 
Church will have anything to do with anything like "the great tribulation"?

Quite a few parallels with "tribulation" saints and the church!!

Recap:

1) John is companion of those in tribulation and the patience
of Jesus and of those who suffer because of the Word of God and
the testimony of Jesus.  John lived long before the speculators
of a future trib theory believed "the tribulation" to start.

2) These same notes are described as experienced by "tribulation saints"
throughout Revelation.  

3) Even the epistles note the SAME terminologies when referring to 
saints of the CHURCH.

4) In the 3.5 years of future trib theorists, we read about
believers holding the word of God (commandments of God) and the
Testimony of Jesus, just the same elements John associated as 
characteristic of beleivers who are his companions in tribulation.

Friend, great tribulation is experienced by the Church!

Let me end by asking you if Israel was around when Egypt suffered the 
plagues that are so sikmilar to the Revelation plagues?

Was Israel "exited" from Egypt BEFORE these things occurred? No.
DId God protect His people?  Yes.  Why worry about tribulation.
We will not suffer God's wrath but we will suffer Satan's tribulation
as we do everyday.
-- 
In Christ,
Mike Blume
mfblume@ns.sympatico.ca
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/mfblume/mblume.htm