Revelation discussion - 2 of 2

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Timothy Litteral wrote:
 
> Rev. Blume:
> > Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of
> > desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the
> > holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
> > Mat 24:16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into
> > the mountains:
> >
> > But that occurred in 70 AD.  People actually fled Judaea
> > then in response to this very command.
> 
> Me:
> Why then does that mean that they CANNOT flee AGAIN in the
> near future.

Did not say it cannot.  But why say it could when it was already 
fulfilled once? Another statement without example of proof.  Show 
me another prophecy which was ALREADY fulfilled twice
in two different time periods.

Prescribers to a future trib period claim that prophecies have a double
fulfillment.  But can they prove it by PAST prophecies which were ALREADY
fullfiled twice?  Maybe, but I never seen proof or ANY example yet.
Sounds like making up a rule of prophecy in order to force scriptures
into a doctrine rather than force their interpretations to adjust to 
scripture.  For if there is not an example of double fuilfillment
in which BOTH fulfillments were fulfilled befor eour time, such reasoning 
is ridiculous and totally unfounded.

> Let's look at some things that we agree upon.
> 
> 1. We are in the "age of the gentiles" since Jerusalem is
> still "trodden under foot."
> 
> 2. The age of the gentiles will end.
> 
> 3. The Jews will be tried. (Jacobs trouble)

Now here we get foggy.  Believers are called Jews in Romans 2:29.
Literal Jews foreshdaowed the TRUE spiritual Jews.  The Church.

> 4. Paul spoke of a MAN of perdition that will stand in A
> temple.

Keep in mind the NT refers to an "OLD MAN" in Romans 6:6; Eph.
4:22; Col 3:9.  NOW think about the man of perdition in the
temple.

> 5. The Jews are READY to build a temple as SOON as
> Jerusalem is no longer "trodden under foot" by the
> Gentiles.

Hey!  Where do you get that one?  Prove it.  JEWS build a temple?
 
> 6. Jesus is coming for His Bride (gentiles) at the end of
> the age of the gentiles.

Which age includes your great tribulation of one of the
3.5 years.

Do you feel that NOW is the time sof the Gentiles?  Yes, I 
would think. And you are correct if you think that!

DO you believe the great tribulation will be 3.5 years?  Yes.
Do you feel there is ANOTHER 3.5 year period of God's wrath?
I think you do.  With that in mind, notice:

The times of the Gentiles INCLUDES either that time of your 
so-called "great tribulation" OR "wrath". Let me prove it.

Luke 21:24  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and 
shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall 
be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the 
Gentiles be fulfilled.

Premise 1:
Jerusalem will be trodden UNTIL the times of Gentiles is over.
You said that already.  Keep that in mind. At that point the times
of the Gentiles will be over.  I think you would say that the rapture
takes place at that point.  You are correct!  I agree.

When the times of the gentiles are over, the church will be raptured.
Agreed?

(Here is where I believe the 3.5 years is not literal but represents
the whole church age!!!!) Watch:

Rev 11:2  But the court which is without the temple leave out, 
and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the 
holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Rev 11:3  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they 
shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, 
clothed in sackcloth.

Jesus said Jerusalem would be trodden down during the whole
period known as the "times of the Gentiles".  That is a long time.
Right?  Has been 2000 years so far!!!

Then Revelation 11 says that Jerusalem shall be trodden down for
42 months.  How many years is that?  3.5 years!!!  Hmmmmmmmmmm.....
(Interesting?)

If you put Jesus' words together with Rev 11., you realize that
the times of the Gentiles is 3.5 years, because Rev 11 said the gentiles
shall tread Jerusalem under for 42 months.  And Jesus said the gentiles
shall tread Jerusalem down until "the times of the Gentiles" is fulfilled.
IOW, the times of the gentiles is 3.5 years!!!!  "But it cannot be!" you say.
Literally it cannot be 3.5 years.  BUT REV. 11:2 said it was 42 months!!!
We know that the times of the Gentiles has been about 2000 years already!!
Jerusalem has been trodden down for 2000 years.  Actually it has been since 
Babylon's time, when Neb. was given the dream about the image of the 
gentile kingdoms. The only conclusion we can biblically arrive at is 
that the 3.5 years are SYMBOLIC of the whole church age!!!!

What happens at the end of this "42 months"?  Jerusalem will no longer
be trodden down, because Jesus said it would be trodden down UNTIL
the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.  In YOUR mind, the times of 
the gentiles ENDS at the beginning of the 3.5 years.  But
Rev 11 INCLUDES the times of the gentiles in the 3.5 years and
actually says the times of the gentiles will BE 3.5 years!!!!
Now that 3.5 year period is EITHER the great tribulation or the
wrath of God, since your idea, I think, is that the two sets
of 3.5 years are Great Tribulation and wrath consecutively.

Personally, 3.5 years represents tribulation of all God's people.
The whole church age.

When will we be raptured?  After this symbolic 3.5 years are over.
(Notice that 3.5 signifies incompleteness - half of 7 - completeness).
 
> 7. There will be a literal rapture or catching away of the
> Bride.

Yes.

> 8. God NEVER has and NEVER will pour out his WRATH upon His
> children.

Amen, and while EGYPT suffered wrath, God's people did not, although they
were still in Egypt.

> 9. The book of Revelation speaks of the out pouring of
> God's wrath upon "THE EARTH."

Egypt represents the world.  And God's people were in Egypt, but
protected from God's wrath while there.

> 10. There hasn't been a rapture yet.

Agreed!!!

> I could go on but let's deal with these first.  First let's
> see if we agree upon these and then we can build from here.

I cannot agree with point 5.  

> 
> Rev. Blume
> > Agreed.  But due to the similarity of wording in 1 Cor 6,
> used by the
> > SAME AUTHOR who wrote 2 Thess, it seems pretty strong an
> argument
> > when no similar wording is as close to 2 Thess 2
> regarding a
> > building.
> >
> > Again, I feel Paul would not call a building THE TEMPLE
> after
> > the age of the shadows of ritualism has passed away.
> 
> Me:
> Why not?  If this is what the Temple will be called by
> those that are about to build it at the FIRST opportunity,
> then to call it anything else would be an error, right?

Not necessarily.  Again, where does the Bible say Israel will
build another temple?  They might.  But where does the BIBLE
say it?  They are doing many things the Bible didn't bother
to prophesy about.  

> Rev. Blume:
> > BAck to my point concerning a future trib period.  This
> keeps cropping
> > up and we must address the issue upon which basis you
> believe there
> > to be a future trib period.
> 
> Me:
> If I am not mistaken, that is the direction that the list
> above will take us.  I have never sat down and orginized
> the support for the pre-trib
> rapture of the Church and the subsequent trial of the Jews
> and outpouring of the wrath of God upon the unbelievers.  I
> thought that all would agree that this was the ONLY WAY it
> makes ANY sense.  Let's go with the list however as a means
> for the "proof" of a pre-trib (or post-trib) rapture.  Once
> this is established I think we will be able to LEAP through
> the rest.

I think many who formerly held faith in pretrib doctrine are
now questioning it greatly!  Like I did when I noticed the
various verses that contradict it.

> Rev. Blume:
> You did mention, though too briefly,
> > taht Revelation's reference to 3.5 years points that way.
>  And I indicated
> > rather detailingly that the ORIGINAL idea of a 7 year
> trib comes from
> > an incorrect interpretation of Daniel 9:26-27.
> 
> Me:
> 1. This is not the bases for MY tally of 7 years.  It comes
> from the account of two three and a half year periods.  We
> will get there but let's clear up the rapture first.

Ok.

> 
> 2. If there are two 3 1/2 year periods then the
> interpretation of Daniel would be dead on.  

You cannot force Daniel into your ideas even if THERE ARE 
two 3.5 year periods.  That is backward study.  Daniel simply said
The MESSIAH would end sacrifices and oblations by His crucifixion.
THAT DEMANDS that Daniel not refer to a future trib period at all.
Your reasoning is similar to saying, "The seven day period 
of Genesis when God made all the world is actually the 70th weeks 
of seven days in Daniel 9, which is the seven year trib period consisting
of 3.5 years of wrath and 3.5 years of trib - day for a year.
Which leads us to conclude that the first 3.5 days of Genesis 1 refer
to tribulation to come!"    You based the comparison on number of years
alone and nothing else in Daniel!

See what I mean?  You cannot pull out verses simply because the DAYS 
are similar in number. And Daniel is clearly about the Lord
having ended the sacrifices of Israel by His death. (Dan 9:27).

> Rev. Blume:
> > If there is NO future trib period then all the thoughts
> about a temple
> > to be built according to "prophecy" is incorrect.
> 
> Me:
> You, or no one else I have EVER heard, saved or otherwise
> have EVER offered anything more than SPECULATION that the
> post-trib interpretation MAY be correct and have not one
> bit of evidence that would make the pre-trib interpretation
> IMPOSSIBLE.  

I think I have shown pretrib doctrine to be untrue above.

> I believe, if I read the way that list is
> presented, that we will indeed arrive at the "proof" that
> the post-trib is unscriptural.  Mid-trib never made any
> sense but I guess we could entertain that too.
> 
> I CERTAINLY will be interested to see.

Address my points above about the "times of the gentiles".  And then
see.

> Rev. Blume:
> "Except the Lord build the house, they
> > labour in vain."
> 
> Me:
> This Temple WILL be in vain.  Won't change the name
> however.

Where is this temple prophesied about, then?


God bless all!!

-- 
In Christ,
Mike Blume
mfblume@ns.sympatico.ca
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/mfblume/mblume.htm