2 Thessalonians Rapture

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2 Thess is one of the STRONGEST POST TRIB passages
in the entire Bible.  Let me show you as I respond to Timothy.


Timothy wrote:

> In 2 Thes. Paul tells them not to be fooled, that the "day
> of Christ" had not come.  This day is commonly known to be
> the judgment day of the evil doers of the Earth.  Paul says
> not to worry since this day "COULDN'T COME UNTIL" the MAN
> of sin was revealed.

I agree.

But what is included in the thought of the DAY of the LORD?

You must consider what 1 Thess. was written about in order to 
correctly interpret 2 Thess.  After all, 2 Thess. was a letter 
written to the people after they were "troubled" due to 1 Thess.

It is unfortnuate that chapter divisions have been put where they
sometimes are found.  In 1 Thess 4, Paul discusses the rapture. And then
everybody thinks that issue is ended when 1 Thess 5 begins.  But that is 
only an illusion due to the words "CHAPTER 5" standing between the
two APPARENTLY separate issues, which are not separate at all.

Notice:

1 Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that 
we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall 
not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a 
shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: 
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up 
together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and 
so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Th 4:18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This is clearly the rapture.  And we must KEEP READING as though the issue
never stopped at verse 18, and include chapter 5 as a continuation
of the thoughts already presented.  You see, chapter divisions were
not inspired by God but man-made for the sake of quick and easy reference.
They were never meant to distinguish and separate points of thought,
though the "chapter makers" tried using that function in many parts 
of the Bible...  but not all.

Paul continues:

1 Th 5:1  But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need 
that I write unto you.

The seasons and times of what?  The rapture of course.  The very fact that
the verse begins with "BUT" tells us that the next statement is referring
to the previous statements in chapter 4 which deal with the rapture.

1 Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh 
as a thief in the night.

Paul answers a question when he begins saying "For..."  In other words, 
it is like saying, "The above is true because...."  So we can say
Paul was writing to the effect, "The times and seasons of the rapture
have no need to be written to you.  And this is true because you already
know that the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night."

If everybody would read THROUGH into chapter 5 after reading chapter 4,
there would be no pretrib rapture theory!  This is true because Paul 
connected the "day of the Lord" with the rapture.

1 Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden 
destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and 
they shall not escape.

Again Paul starts by saying "For".  Or, "You have no need for
me to explain the times and seasons when the rapture shall occur
because He will come like a thief in the night.  And this is true 
because sudden destruction shall come upon them when they say peace 
and safety."

And this STILL is connected to the thought of rapture.

And Paul really drive the point home when he says:

1 Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day 
should overtake you as a thief.

That day will not overtake us as a thief!!!!!  What day???  The day of the 
Lord.  What is Paul saying?  What does he mean that day will not overtake us
as a thief?  He is saying that we will expect it because we know the times 
and seasons!!!!!  Read 5:1 again.  Times and seasons of what?  What do the 
"times and seasons" of 5:1 refer to?  RAPTURE.

We expect the rapture to take place WHEN WE SEE THINGS COME TO PASS.  
(Matt 24:33)

1 Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the 
day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1 Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch 
and be sober.

Let us watch for what?  The time snad the seasons - SIGNS - which we already
are aware of.  We know that when they say peace and safety that trouble
shall come.  We will be here when they say PEACE AND SAFETY.  The reason
it is a sign to us is due to the fact Jesus told us to WATCH FOR THIS.
And that implies we will be here when this happens.  And Paul said THE DAY
OF THE LORD will occur THEN.

1 Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch 
and be sober.
1 Th 5:7  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be 
drunken are drunken in the night.
1 Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the 
breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1 Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain 
salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

We must be AWAKE during this time.  We who are of the day are
"not in the dark", so to speak.  We are well aware of what is happening.
Wrath and rapture is fixing to occur the same day!!!  Did not Paul
say THE DAY of the Lord????

And we will not receive wrath on that DAY, but it will be a DAY of
salvation for us!  For the same day that WRATH falls will be 
the same day the rapture occurs!  Wrath for them, rapture for us!

IN ONE DAY!

That is why Jesus said:

Mat 24:38  For as in the days that were before the flood they 
were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until 
the **DAY** that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; 
so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luke 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they 
were given in marriage, until the **DAY** that Noe entered into the ark, 
and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luke 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, 
they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luke 17:29  But ***THE SAME DAY*** that Lot went out of Sodom it rained 
fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luke 17:30  Even thus shall it be IN THE DAY when the Son of man is 
revealed.

Apply that to Revelation 6, for all scripture must agree with the rest.

Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the 
rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every 
bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in 
the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide 
us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the 
wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For THE GREAT DAY of his wrath is come; and who shall be 
able to stand?

THE SAME DAY that Noah entered the safety of the ark, the wrath took
away the sinners.

THE SAME DAY that Lot escaped Sodom, the wrath took away the sinners.

THE SAME DAY OF THE LORD in which sudden destruction takes
away the world will be the day we find salvation.  FOR THE SAME
DAY will be to the world as wrath, but to the church as RAPTURE.

1 Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain 
salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Noah was not appointed to wrath but salvation THE SAME DAY THE
WORLD EXPERIENCED THEIR APPOINTMENT OF WRATH.  So shall it be
at the coming of the Son of Man!

So clearly, the DAY OF THE LORD occurs the same DAY as the rapture
occurs.  That day is salvation to us but wrath to "them".  We will
hear "THEM" say peace and safety, but we know better.  We know what
is coming ANY DAY.  

Paul and Jesus both stressed suddenness and unexpectancy when they
discussed the DAY OF THE LORD.  The flood was so unexpected, that the 
people were eating and drinking until the very day the flood came!!!  
No visible signs.  No forewarning outside of God's Word, which they
would not beleive.  Same went with Lot's "day."    No warning
in visible indication that fire and brimstone would fall.  Just a Word
given from God.  And it was so SUDDEN and UNEXPECTED that Sodom's
citizens were living it up UNTIL THE VERY DAY IT HAPPENED.  And this 
PERFECTLY lines up with 1 Thess. 4:15 - 5:9 which relays to us ONE 
DISCUSSION.  Not two.

Soooooo...... whe we read about Day of the Lord in 2 Thess. 2, we must 
realize that Paul is implying BOTH the day of wrath and the day of
rapture for they occur the SAME DAY.  So, while the world is hiding in 
the sixth seal, for the DAY of the Lord has come, we are shooting up in 
the skies in rapture glory!!! Hallelujuah!!!

This is supported by the following:

2 Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the 
Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2 Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, 
and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from 
the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2 Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and 
to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony 
among you was believed) in that day.

The Lord shall come in flaming vengeance the same day he is revealed
to the Church in rapture - the same day He is glorified in the saints.

The Thessalonians thought they were already in the day of the LORD!
Now the error that the day of the Lord included the tribulation
was in their minds.  And Paul had to correct them in 2 Thess.  Because, 
when they thought the Day of the Lord was upon them due to their tribulation
(see 2 Thess 1:4), they thought the rapture would take place, for they
knew the day of the Lord and the Rapture were simultaneous.  Wrath of the
world but rapture for the church.

The Thessalonians were thinking of quitting their jobs and everything, 
due to theoir thought that the day of the Lord and Rapture was nigh.  
That is why he exhorted them to not do so in 2 Thess 3:6-15.  The 
Thessalonians were no fearing nor sorrowing, but merely agitated.

2 Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither 
by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of 
Christ is at hand.

Shaken in mind implies loss of composure.  Troubled implies agitated.  
They began to think about quitting work, and Paul had to correct this 
error.

>  If this is after the working of Rev. Blumes model, He
> should have ALREADY been revealed.  Paul says that it is
> the "Church" that is holding him back by the Holy Ghost.

Not true at all.  The church is never said to be that which withholds.
that is another paradigm of many pretrib paradigms.

2 Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day 
shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and 
that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is 
called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth 
in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2 Th 2:5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told 
you these things?
2 Th 2:6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be 
revealed in his time.
2 Th 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he 
who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

You cannot make blunt statements without proof.  You cannot say the
Church withholds the antichrist without proof, since 2 Thess. 
does not explicitly say what the withholding factor is.  It merely
says "HE".  Now the church is never called a "HE" for one thing.
It is a "SHE".  The Bride.  Many believe that which restrains
is God's power, some think Satan's power, some think Antichrist's
self-restraint.   But no foundation exists for it to be the church.

And it cannot be Jesus in the church because what difference would
Jesus in the Church make to Jesus withhholding.  

Some say verse 6 plainly tells us that the TIME ELEMENT is the restrainer.
For the reason that antichrist "might be revealed IN HIS TIME," he is
withheld from appearing.  But the church????  Not at all.
 
> 2 Thessalonians 2
> 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be
> revealed in his time.
> 
> Jesus IN the Church.

Prove it.  Prove THIS restraint is Jesus in the church.  You cannot
use this chapter since it does not say anything about Jesus in the Church
restraining anything.  But that very verse does say the restraint is
the fact that TIME is not right!  Time was not right when Babel was built
and God restrained events in Gen. 11:6.  That was antichrist spirit.  But 
time was 

> 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he
> who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
> 
> This accounts for Rev. Blumes point; "mystery of iniquity
> doth already work" but Paul says that "someone" (Christ in
> His "Body")
> "reins" iniquity in until He is taken (snatched/raptured)
> out of the way.  This cannot be any wickedness in the
> Church (individual or collective) since the Holy Ghost
> would have to be "taken out of the way."

Again you have no foundation for saying "HE" is Jesus in the 
church since nothing in this entire chapter says that. It is
a paradigm or assumption.

> 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord
> shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall
> destroy with the brightness of his coming:
> 
> In Rev. Blume's scenerio this took place on the day of
> Pentecost.

Ahhhhh.  Not so.  You see you do not completely know what I 
believe.  Each believer is a temple.  And each believer
is saved at different times in history.  For each believer
the old man is cast down and destroyed at different times.

> If however this is a MAN in the near future Jesus can
> "destroy" him without making a final disposition of Satan.
> 
> 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with
> all power and signs and lying wonders,
> 
> Here you have it!  "Him" (one being) whose "coming" (not
> there yet) is after (in the manner of) Satan (another
> being).  This was written AFTER the fall of the Temple my
> friends.  Call him what you like but I think that
> "Antichrist" is pretty accurate.

It is antichrist alright, but there is not "THE ANTICHRIST" in the
Bible.  Just "MANY ANTICHRISTS".  It almost seems as though John
was correcting that false idea that THE ANTICHRIST shall come, when
he wrote:

1 John 2:18  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have 
heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; 
whereby we know that it is the last time.

It is like saying, "You have heard the incorrect idea that THE antichrist
shall come, and then you will know it is the end.  Let me correct you 
by saying there are MANY antichrists, and THAT is why we know we are in 
the last days."   

..."whereby we know that it is the last time."

You see, the "last days" to the apostles were not the "last days" that
"classic" prophecy teaching has assumed them to be.  The LAST DAYS
began with the CHURCH's birth!!!!

Heb 1:1  God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time 
past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

So not only is GREAT TRIB a misnomer, but so is the modern idea
of "LAST DAYS".
 
> 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them
> that perish; because they received not the love of the
> truth, that they might be saved.
> 
> 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion,
> that they should believe a lie:
> 
> Strong delusion (energetically effective) that the
> UNBELIVERS would ALL believe a lie.  Could this lie be that
> impostor's claim to be Messiah?  Yeah.

That is again supposition.  It simply says A LIE.  Even believed
SHE WAS LIKE THE "GODS", and was said to believe a lie.

Gen 3:5  For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then 
your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing 
good and evil.
Gen 3:6  And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, 
and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to 
make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and 
gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Thus, the LIE that she could exalt herself in her "temple" which 
was intended to be filled with GOD'S LIFE rather than self-exaltation
Adam was to CONTAIN LIFE, as a temple contains God, not knowledge of 
good and evil.  AND KNOWLEDGE puffs SELF up. 1 Cor 8:1.  And that is 
linked to IDOLATRY in the context of 1 Cor 8!!!!  Connect that thought 
with 2 Thess 2 and you see the connection quite clearly.  That is 
the advantage that cross referencing has over "paradigmal" assumption.
 
Connect this clear cross reference with 2 Thess 2 and believing a lie.

> 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the
> truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
> 
> That they ALL might be damned who "believed" not the truth.
>  Past tense.
> 
> This is what I mean by a pre-trib rapture.

How so?

Clearly rapture is AFTER tribulation and the Day of the Lord is
the same time the rapture takes place.  Wrath for "them" -- 
rapture for "us".  Read through 1 Thess. 4 and 5 together!  Then
we can properly interpret 2 Thess. 2.

-- 
In Christ,
Mike Blume
mfblume@ns.sympatico.ca
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/mfblume/mblume.htm



-- 
In Christ,
Mike Blume
mfblume@ns.sympatico.ca
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/mfblume/mblume.htm