Tribulation (LONG POST)

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LOOOONG POST:

Timothy Litteral wrote:
 
>  Rev. Blume:
> Let us say, for example, that your idea of a future
> tribulation
> period is correct.  According to that thought (we are
> chatting about the whole intro since we are chatting about
> Chapter 1 so far, right?) the whole book of Revelation
> deals with a period known as the "Great Tribulation."  That
> is why you say the church is not here after such and such a
> chapter.  You feel that is when "the" Great Tribulation
> occurs.
> 
> Me:
> I only use the phrase "Great Tribulation" since it carries
> the general conotation, among pre-tribbers anyway, of a
> period at the end of the age of the Gentiles in which the
> church has been raptured and the 144,000 are "earmarked"
> for salvation while God pours out His wrath upon the
> unbelievers.  It is a misnomer however.

It must be ever understood to be a misnomer.  Such incorrect terms
unintentionally force one in a certain direction ofttimes.

> The last occurance of the word "tribulation" is in Rev.
> 7:14: "...These are they which came out of great
> tribulation," (won't do the number thing, but it is COOL!).
> The reference to the term tribulation is in the past tense.
> The last reference to the "tribulation" of the Godly in
> other than a past tense is in ch 6:11 where those under
> the altar are told to "hang on a little while" until their
> brothers (martyrs) would join them.  This is a clear
> statement that those who killed the saints would not be
> judged "until after" every last martyr was killed.  Here
> judgment doesn't mean sentenced but the execution of the
> sentence.
> 
> In ch. 7 we have a "sea" of people from "all nations" in
> front of the throne.  These are identified as those who
> have come out of "great tribulation" and what we see AFTER

Before which the 144,000 are sealed.

> this scene is the outpouring of God's WRATH upon those on
> the Earth who would not believe on Jesus' name.

Agreed.

> The word "wrath" occcurs 13 more times in the book of the
> Revelation and ALWAYS refers to men on the Earth.  God does
> not pour out His wrath on His faithful children, He may
> correct them, but doesn't pour His wrath on them.  Now, who
> is it that He is taking vengance upon?

Sinners.  Agreed.

> Revelation 6, "9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I
> saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for
> the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10
> And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord,
> holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on
> them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given
> unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that
> they should rest yet for a little season, until their
> fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be
> killed as they were, should be fulfilled."  Here the
> martyrs are told to "wait" until their "brothers" would be
> killed just like they were and THEN God would pour out His
> wrath on those "THAT DWELL ON THE EARTH."  
> . Now, in verse
> 17, we find that "the great day of his wrath is come;"
> What happen in the mean time then?  The only possible
> conclusion is that the last martyr was killed.  

That is true.  But you mentioned yourself that the brethren
of those slain were to be killed AFTER the fifth seal.  Now
are the circumstances up to and including the the fifth seal 
tribulation or not?  This proves the church is here during the
tribulation.  NOT WRATH, but tribulation.

> Now
> consider that just because the last martyr is killed
> doesn't mean that the last Christian is dead.  The reason
> that we must conclude that the Christians are gone by the
> time of the outpouring of God's wrath is found in verses 15
> and 16: "15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men,
> and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty
> men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves
> in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said
> to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from
> the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the
> wrath of the Lamb:"  Some where between verse 11 and verse
> 16 we not only lose the martyrs but all Christians since it
> says in verse 15 that EVERYONE on Earth is trying to HIDE
> from the WRATH of God.

You must consider the idea that the last seals, the last trumpet
and the last vial all contain the thought of thunderings and
voices and so on indicating an ENDING.

END OF SEALS:
Rev 8:1  And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was 
silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:5  And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire 
of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, 
and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.


END OF TRUMPETS:
Rev 10:7  But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when 
he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, 
as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11:13  And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and 
the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain 
of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave 
glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14  The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe 
cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15  And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great 
voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become 
the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign 
for ever and ever.


END OF VIALS:
Rev 16:15  Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that 
watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and 
they see his shame.
Rev 16:16  And he gathered them together into a place called 
in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17  And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the 
air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, 
from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18  And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; 
and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were 
upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.


All three sets of sevens END with thunders and so on.  And due to
this we can say the END of the seals, trumpets and vials occurs
simultaneously.  The previous seals, trumpets and vials may begin
at different points in time, but not the END.  THEY ALL END TOGETHER.

For example:


               T  I  M  E  

SEALS  1     2     3     4     5     6     7 

TRUMPETS                 1  2  3  4  5  6  7

VIALS                                1234567


This is so since they all end the same way with the same
details.

And notice that immediately before the 7TH VIAL, we are given a note
of warning.....

Rev 16:15  Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that 
watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and 
they see his shame.

Hmmmmmmm.......  Notice the coming of a thief is mentioned just
before the last vial.  And a note about keeping our garments cleaned
is mentioned here too!!!

So the last seal, trumpet and vial OCCUR AFTER the church is gone,
and.  The WRATH occurs BEFORE the 7th seal but after the 6th.

-----
Sounds like the reference to the patience of the saints being 
required when Rev 13 and Rev 14 mentions the marr of the beast 
(Rev 13:10; Rev 14:11-12).

After Rev 14:12, and the sentence noted for those who take the mark,
we read that Jesus comes in the clouds!  RAPTURE!!

Rev 14:14  And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the 
cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a 
golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15  And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a 
loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and 
reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of 
the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16  And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the 
earth; and the earth was reaped.

This is the rapture.  Immediately after the rapture
is armageddon:

Rev 14:17  And another angel came out of the temple which is in 
heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18  And another angel came out from the altar, which had 
power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the 
sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the 
clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19  And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, 
and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great 
winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20  And the winepress was trodden without the city, and 
blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by 
the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

This agrees with the rapture just before the last vial which is 
armageddon.
-----

> This would be those left after the rapture.  Am I pre-trib?
>  No, I am pre-wrath.  Looking for consistency of Scripture?
>  Read about Noah.  

Noah was still in the world but SHELTERED when the world was
deluged.  So that is not a good comparison.  When Jesus used
Noah in Matthew 24, He was not stressing the aspect of Noah's ESCAPE
but rather the suddenness of wrath which came unexpectedly.
Same with Lot's case.  Jesus did not stress the escape of Lot,
but rather the suddenness of the wrath falling unexpectedly.

> I haven't space here for the
> correlations but they become obvious in a hurry.

They are correlations not used by Christ when He referred to the
same story.

> In Rev. 9:18 we see that 1/3 of the worlds population is
> killed by three plagues.  Now we get to the part that tells
> us just who the rest of the people on the Earth are.  In
> verses 20 and 21 we read how "the rest of the men that were
> not killed by these plagues" wouldn't repent of their sins
> against God.  So we have 1/3 killed and 2/3's that will not
> repent of their sins.  That is 3/3's as far as I can tell
> and means just that with the exclusion of the 144,000 which
> are
> tagged to be a remnant.  Now is a good time to consider the
> condition of those that would be left behind in the
> rapture.


The fact that DWELLERS upon the earth do not repent distinguishes the
saints from sinners.  

For example:
Rev 12:12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. 
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil 
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that 
he hath but a short time.

We are IN the world but not OF it.  This world is not our home.  But sinners
have their home in this world.

Tim gets into 2 Thess at this point.  And to this I post a separate
post to deal with this issue alone.  For this 2 Thess. issue
is one of the STRONGEST POTS TRIB passages in the entire Bible
-- 
In Christ,
Mike Blume
mfblume@ns.sympatico.ca
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/mfblume/mblume.htm