Tribulation (LONG POST)

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Rev. Blume:
> That is true.  But you mentioned yourself that the
brethren
> of those slain were to be killed AFTER the fifth seal. 
Now
> are the circumstances up to and including the the fifth
seal 
> tribulation or not?  This proves the church is here
during the
> tribulation.  NOT WRATH, but tribulation.

Me:
As I said to begin with and all along, this, right here
today is the beginning of the tribulation.  This will
increase in intensity and the grace of God shall increase. 
This period ends (as does the age of the Gentiles/Church,
we Gentiles ARE the church) with the rapture.
Of all the unbelievers that are left, God "marks" 144,000
to "remain" or be a "remnant" of survivers of the wrath
that God is going to pour out on all that "would not
believe."  

You said yourself that the rapture and the day of wrath
were on the same day.  I agree.  There is the rapture or
the great "snatching away" of the Church and all that is
left on the Earth are unbelievers.
Why SO hard to believe that once the church is raptured or
"taken out of the way" as it says in 2 Thes. that there is
a seven year period in which "Jacob" has his trouble?

The wrath of God is poured upon the rebellious WHILE THE
RIGHTEOUS ARE IN HEAVEN PREPARING THEMSELVES FOR THEIR
HUSBAND! 
 
Rev. Blume:
> You must consider the idea that the last seals, the last
trumpet
> and the last vial all contain the thought of thunderings
and
> voices and so on indicating an ENDING.

Me: 
What makes the last trumpet MENTIONED in the book of
Revealtion the "last trump?"
 
Rev. Blume:
> END OF SEALS:

Me:
This is also the END of TRIBULATION.  When you divide the
book of Revelation into the tribulation of the Church which
ENDS in the rapture (ch 6) and THEN the rest of the book is
in reference to the WRATH of God poured on those who
wouldn't believe with the EXCEPTION of the 144,000 and of
course those who are in Heaven, everything starts to fall
into place.

Rev. Blume:
> All three sets of sevens END with thunders and so on. 
And due to this we can say the END of the seals, trumpets
and vials occurs
> simultaneously. 

Me:
No way.  There "can't" be three SEPARATE thunderings?  Why
not?  What about the thunderings at the beginning of the
book?  Did all these "end" then.  Shoot this assumption
through and the rest falls.

Rev. Blume:
> Sounds like the reference to the patience of the saints
being 
> required when Rev 13 and Rev 14 mentions the marr of the
beast 
> (Rev 13:10; Rev 14:11-12).

Me:
These "saints" are the 144,000, this goes back to what I
said before about the "inheretance."  If the Church is gone
then the 144,000 would definately be "saints."
 
Rev. Blume:
Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for
thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.  Rev
14:16  And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on
the earth; and the earth was reaped.
 
> This is the rapture.  Immediately after the rapture is
armageddon:

> Rev 14:19  And the angel thrust in his sickle into the
earth, 
> and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the
great 
> winepress of the wrath of God.
> Rev 14:20  And the winepress was trodden without the
city, and 
> blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse
bridles, by 
> the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Me:
Please believe me when I say I am not trying to be flip but
being "trodden" in the "winepress of the *wrath* of God."
doesn't sound like the future Jesus promised me.

Me B4:
> > This would be those left after the rapture.  Am I
pre-trib?
> >  No, I am pre-wrath.  Looking for consistency of
Scripture?
> >  Read about Noah.  

 Rev. Blume:
> Noah was still in the world but SHELTERED when the world
was deluged.  So that is not a good comparison.  

Me:
Noah stood and preached to the world that the wrath of the
Lord was coming.  While he preached he built the "ark"
because of the "covenant" he had made with the Lord to be
"saved" from the coming WRATH.  When the "place" of his
refuge was "prepared" he went in "at the voice of the Lord"
and the "place" was shut to those who wouldn't listen.  The
Lord pours out his WRATH upon those that are "outside of
the Ark of safety" and the righteous are "LIFTED" INTO
HEAVEN while the flood of God's wrath destroys those ON THE
EARTH.  At the END of this outpouring, during which he and
his family were held above the wrath, after the Earth is
"cleansed," Noah is "returned" to REIGN.  Noah was
uncircumsized and was not under the Law but was saved by
the Grace of God and his OBEDIENCE to the *"WORD"*!!!!!!!

I would say that it is indeed a good anology to the rapture
of the Chruch. 

The foreshodowing of what happens to the Jews during this
period is in the story of Moses (Law/Jews) before Pharoah
(great man of sin).

Timothy Litteral
472 Grant St.
Marion Ohio 43302
brotim@gte.net
http://members.tripod.com/~trlitteral