Tribulation (LONG POST)

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Timothy Litteral wrote:
 
> Rev. Blume:
> > That is true.  But you mentioned yourself that the
> brethren
> > of those slain were to be killed AFTER the fifth seal.
> Now
> > are the circumstances up to and including the the fifth
> seal
> > tribulation or not?  This proves the church is here
> during the
> > tribulation.  NOT WRATH, but tribulation.
> 
> Me:
> As I said to begin with and all along, this, right here
> today is the beginning of the tribulation.  

It is incorrect to say TRIBULATION BEGINS at the sixth seal.  
I must have read you wrong.  Please clarify yourself on this point
when you believe tribulation BEGINS.  What are the first
five seals if they are not tribulation?  You seem to be confusing 

God's wrath with tribulation.  They are not the same thing.

Rememeber the first four seals are troubles - famine, wars,
false doctrine etc.

Jesus listed the four horsemen in the exact order Rev 6 lists them:

SEAL 1 - WHITE HORSE
Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no 
man deceive you.
Mat 24:5  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and 
shall deceive many.

SEAL 2 - RED HORSE
Mat 24:6  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye 
be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end 
is not yet.
Mat 24:7  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against 
kingdom:

SEAL 3 - BLACK HORSE
24:7...and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, 
in divers places.
Mat 24:8  All these are the beginning of sorrows.

SEAL 4 - PALE HORSE
Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall 
kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Who was Jesus talking to?  The SAINTS who believed in Him.  And he said 
"YOU".

BEGINNING OF SORROWS - THE TROUBLES or TRIBULATIONS of the Church.

And that is BEFORE the sixth seal when you said
tribulation begins.

> This will
> increase in intensity and the grace of God shall increase.
> This period ends (as does the age of the Gentiles/Church,
> we Gentiles ARE the church) with the rapture.

Lets handle the "times of the Gentiles" at this point.
You did not address my former post about the TIMES of the gentiles
after which the rapture takes place.  The times of the Gentiles,
of course, is the duration of the Gentile kingdom.  Daniel was
shown Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the image depicting the Gentile
kingdoms.  At the end of these kingdoms, the Rock Christ will destroy
the whole system.  And JERUSALEM shall reign under Christ.  Jerusalem
shall be trodden down until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

As you correctly point out, the RAPTURE occuirs AFTER this time is 
completed.

Luke 21:24  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall 
be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden 
down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Jesus said the times of the Gentiles, or "AGE OF THE GENTILES" as you
said it, will continue until its duration is over and THEN shall
Jerusalem be no longer trodden under.

You said the age of the gentiles is the age of the church.
If that is so, and I agree it is, then the next verse proves your
whole concept incorrect.

Rev 11:2  But the court which is without the temple leave out, and 
measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city 
shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Jesus said Jerusalem shall be trodden down during the entire duration 
of the Times of the Gentiles.  Revelation 11 says the duration of the
treading down of Jerusalem by the gentiles is only 3.5 years!!!!!!!!!

And the rapture takes place AFTER this time.

Please do not overlook this point this time, since you avoided it,
either purposely or unintentionally, when I first noted it
in a previous post.

In Revelation we read that the duration of the Gentile AGE (CHURCH 
AGE TO YOU) is 3.5 years!!!  How can this be?  3.5 years is 
representative of the entire CHURCH AGE.  And this point refutes the 
thought that the so-called 7-year tribulation period, or 3.5 years 
of tribulation and 3.5 years of wrath, is unbiblical.  Even the 
numbers in Revelation are figurative, including the 144,000.

12 (a very figurative number) times 12,000. (When THOUSANDS always
simply meant MANY).

That number describes the Church.

Jerusalem is the BRIDE.  Rev 21:2.  THE CHURCH.  Not an actual city.
(21:9).  And she measures 12,000 furlongs cubic.  A cube has
12 support egdes.  Four horizontal edges on top, four on the bottom and
four vertical edges on the sides.  That is 12 edges. Each Edge
is 12,000 furlongs.  So it is 12 X 12,000 = 144,000.

You will not notice such things if you look at Revelation as
literal.  And if the 144,000 are SAINTS, and they stand on a mountain
called Sion in Rev 15 (Which the Church is standing on according to
Heb 12:22, where the church is ALSO called the CITY) like the
actual Temple always was on a mountain,  and if Jerusalem
is said to be 1444,000 furlongs in sum of its support edges, then
the picture clearly shows the CHURCH.

Was Jesus and Rev 11 BOTH referring to the treading down of JERUSALEM?
Yes.  Did Jesus and Rev 11 BOTH mention the GENTILES in that scenario?
YES.  

My view is that the times of the Gentiles is figuratively referred to
as 3.5 years.  It has been 2,000 years already.  Church Age, as you said.
But Rev. 11 throws out your idea that 3.5 years is literal, since
Jesus distinctly said that such treading down and such "times of the
gentiles" occurs over the entire church age.

Are not Gentiles presently treading down Jerusalem?  Yes. Jerusalem is 
presently under the Gentile's feet.  Only one quarter of the city
is Jewish!

Please address this, since this is crucial as to whether the seven years
are literal or figurative.  And if they are figurative, as I believe I 
have just proven, then your whole concept of a 7 year period is incorrect.

My view is that the treading down of Jerusalem is the troubles of the Church
age.  And when Jerusalem is encamped about with armies, Satan's horde
of Gog and Magog (not Russia or any other literal nations), God raises
up a standard against the enemy.  Jerusalem ABOVE is our concern. (Gal 4:
26).

>  Of all the unbelievers that are left, God "marks" 144,000
> to "remain" or be a "remnant" of survivers of the wrath
> that God is going to pour out on all that "would not
> believe."
> 
> You said yourself that the rapture and the day of wrath
> were on the same day.  I agree.  There is the rapture or
> the great "snatching away" of the Church and all that is
> left on the Earth are unbelievers.

But that makes the DAY OF THE LORD in 2 Thessalonians AFTER
the antichrist comes!

> Why SO hard to believe that once the church is raptured or
> "taken out of the way" as it says in 2 Thes. that there is
> a seven year period in which "Jacob" has his trouble?

You contradict yourself.  You agree with me that the day of the Lord
is the day of rapture.  And according to 2 Thess 2, the Day of the Lord
cannot occur until AFTER the antichrist is revealed.

And the note of the times of the Gentiles being 3.5 years when we
know it has been over 2,000 years makes the 7 year deal incorrect.
 
> The wrath of God is poured upon the rebellious WHILE THE
> RIGHTEOUS ARE IN HEAVEN PREPARING THEMSELVES FOR THEIR
> HUSBAND!

And this does not demand 3.5 years of 7 years to be the time of preparation.
Friend, the MARRIAGE will occur immediately when the rapture takes place.
We do not need a time element to prepare for the wedding after we are glorified.

And NOWHERE is wrath said to be 3.5 years or 7 years.  There is the WRATH
of Satan which is TRIBULATION.  I experienced the wrath of satan many times!

Rev 12:12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. 
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for THE DEVIL IS
COME DOWN TO YOU, HAVING GREAT WRATH, because he knoweth that he 
hath but a short time.

This is not God's wrath but the devil's wrath.  TRIBULATION.

Is God the devil?  No.

But God's wrath occurs AFTER satan's wrath.  And it is a very short period 
of time, perhaps months or mere weeks that God's wrath occurs, if you take 
Revelation literally.  (This takes me back to my days when I felt 
tribulation was future as do you, and that the church is raptured AFTER 
the 7 year period.   I no longer see things like that, though I feel rapture
occurs AFTER tribulation since the whole church age is TRIBULATION, but it 
is more feasible than any idea of a pre-trib rapture due to the points 
I have just made..)

> Rev. Blume:
> > You must consider the idea that the last seals, the last
> trumpet
> > and the last vial all contain the thought of thunderings
> and
> > voices and so on indicating an ENDING.
> 
> Me:
> What makes the last trumpet MENTIONED in the book of
> Revealtion the "last trump?"

No more trumpets follow it.  But may occur before it.  7 always
meant complete.  Fulfilled.  Perfect.  And the 7th trump
simply and figuratively means the last day.  Sort of like the 
7th day of Genesis.  The last day.  Rest.

> Rev. Blume:
> > END OF SEALS:
> 
> Me:
> This is also the END of TRIBULATION.  When you divide the
> book of Revelation into the tribulation of the Church which
> ENDS in the rapture (ch 6) and THEN the rest of the book is
> in reference to the WRATH of God poured on those who
> wouldn't believe with the EXCEPTION of the 144,000 and of
> course those who are in Heaven, everything starts to fall
> into place.

You are not proving that tribulation is a future thing which has
not started yet.  Please address this.  You only made statements
which take that thought for granted, and statements which 
simply say 3.5 years in Revelation is mentioned several times
which somehow proves a 7 year period is yet to come.

> Rev. Blume:
> > All three sets of sevens END with thunders and so on.
> And due to this we can say the END of the seals, trumpets
> and vials occurs
> > simultaneously.
> 
> Me:
> No way.  There "can't" be three SEPARATE thunderings?  

I did not say that.  Read me again.  I said they are all the same 
simultaneous occurrances so far as the seals, trumpets and vials go.  
The seventh of the seals trumpets and vials occur AT ONCE.  

> Why
> not?  What about the thunderings at the beginning of the
> book?  Did all these "end" then.  Shoot this assumption
> through and the rest falls.

When a series of sevens occurs and they each end with thunderings
it is quite different from a simply reference to thunderings outside 
of such a series.  The seven (7) number  always denotes a finishing
tone.

Note the thought of ENDINGS in each of the three sevens.

Rev 8:1  And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence 
in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Rev 10:7  But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when 
he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as 
he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 16:17  And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; 
and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the 
throne, saying, It is done.

Revelation clearly goes forward with a short summary of events and then
goes back in time to clarify those events in greater detail.

For example:

Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, 
and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall 
wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

All agree this is THE END!  But it is mentioned in chapter 1.

This is a Semitic style of writing.  Revelation sweeps across complex 
events and then backs up to explain the details.  You do not read Revelation
as though it begins at a point in time and continues onward in 
chronological fashion as though Rev. 13's events are after Rev 6's events.

Chapter 7 shows people AFTER tribulation is over.  And Chapter 11 brings 
an end to tribulation.  And we arrive at Armageddon in 16:16.  But The whole 
details of Armageddon are only given in 19:11-21.  So the Bible
gives sweeping and quick overviews of events at first and slows down
more and more as it goes back in time after such descriptions 
to give details the further we read Revelation.

The vials of wrath are clustered quite close to the proximity of Armageddon,
and are not 3.5 years in duration.  Where did the idea of wrath taking 3.5 years
to occur come from?

ONLY THE VIALS are distinctly said to be wrath.

Rev 15:1  And I saw another sign in heaven, great and 
marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; 
for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

So the thought of the seventh of each seal and trumpet and vial
occurring simultaneously is easily seen.
 
> Rev. Blume:
> > Sounds like the reference to the patience of the saints
> being
> > required when Rev 13 and Rev 14 mentions the marr of the
> beast
> > (Rev 13:10; Rev 14:11-12).
> 
> Me:
> These "saints" are the 144,000, this goes back to what I
> said before about the "inheretance."  

Prove it.  Such a statement without veracity gets us nowhere.

> If the Church is gone
> then the 144,000 would definately be "saints."

That is just it.  The church is not gone.  The 144,000 ARE THE CHURCH.

We already discuess how SAINTS refers to NT saints, and ELECT refers 
to the church.

And Rev. 14's reference to those who refuse the mark who have the patience
of the saints, who also have the faith of JESUS (proving they cannot be
reserved Jews), occurs BEFORE the harvest of the CHURCH (rapture) is noted
in  Rev 14:14

Rev 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that 
keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:13  And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed 
are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the 
Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do 
follow them.
Rev 14:14  And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one 
sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in 
his hand a sharp sickle.

Another proof that pretrib is incorrect is found in the above words.

It speaks about the mark of the beast in verse 11, and speaks of those who 
DIE IN THE LORD FROM HENCEFORTH.  That means the saints who die in CHRIST
from the point of resisting the mark of the beast and onward in time.

The DEAD IN CHRIST involve people who resisted the mark and are slain.

But 1 Thessalonians 4 speaks of the DEAD IN CHRIST being raptured at the one
and only rapture of the church!

1 Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with 
a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: 
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up 
together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so 
shall we ever be with the Lord.

Are the literally numbered 144,000 JEWS said to be DEAD IN CHRIST by
the proponents of such a teaching?  No. 

And in order to be "in Christ", one must have bee bapitzed INTO HIM
according to Romans 6:3 and Gal. 3:27

Rom 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into 
Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Gal 3:27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have 
put on Christ.

And that is accomplished for the sake of being risen with Christ in newness
of Life.

Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: 
that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of 
the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

What is that a reference to other than Holy Ghost infilling?

That means those who die in the Lord from the time of the mark of the 
beast and onward must have experienced Acts 2:38.  And that cannot
be experienced after the RAPTURE.

So many such proofs show pretrib doctrine to be incorrect.

> Rev. Blume:
> Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for
> thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.  Rev
> 14:16  And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on
> the earth; and the earth was reaped.
> 
> > This is the rapture.  Immediately after the rapture is
> armageddon:
> 
> > Rev 14:19  And the angel thrust in his sickle into the
> earth,
> > and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the
> great
> > winepress of the wrath of God.
> > Rev 14:20  And the winepress was trodden without the
> city, and
> > blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse
> bridles, by
> > the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
> 
> Me:
> Please believe me when I say I am not trying to be flip but
> being "trodden" in the "winepress of the *wrath* of God."
> doesn't sound like the future Jesus promised me.

You are not reading me correctly.  Do not be so hasty.  I said that
the HARVEST OF THE SICKLE BY THE ONE IN THE CLOUD is the rapture
which takes place BEFORE the trodding of the winepress.  RAPTURE
pulls ous out of the earth before Armageddon.  I said "Immediately
AFTER the rapture is Armageddon."   That distinctly said that the
grapes of wrath are trodden AFTER THE RAPTURE.  You are not reading
my posts carefully.  :-)

> Me B4:
> > > This would be those left after the rapture.  Am I
> pre-trib?
> > >  No, I am pre-wrath.  Looking for consistency of
> Scripture?
> > >  Read about Noah.
> 
>  Rev. Blume:
> > Noah was still in the world but SHELTERED when the world
> was deluged.  So that is not a good comparison.
> 
> Me:
> Noah stood and preached to the world that the wrath of the
> Lord was coming.  While he preached he built the "ark"
> because of the "covenant" he had made with the Lord to be
> "saved" from the coming WRATH.  When the "place" of his
> refuge was "prepared" he went in "at the voice of the Lord"
> and the "place" was shut to those who wouldn't listen.  The
> Lord pours out his WRATH upon those that are "outside of
> the Ark of safety" and the righteous are "LIFTED" INTO
> HEAVEN while the flood of God's wrath destroys those ON THE
> EARTH.  At the END of this outpouring, during which he and
> his family were held above the wrath, after the Earth is
> "cleansed," Noah is "returned" to REIGN.  Noah was
> uncircumsized and was not under the Law but was saved by
> the Grace of God and his OBEDIENCE to the *"WORD"*!!!!!!!

And you totally missed the fact that the wrath took place the DAY
Noah entered the ark.  In other words, rapture takes place IMMEDIATELY
before the slaying of Armageddon.

> I would say that it is indeed a good anology to the rapture
> of the Chruch.


Jesus NEVER gave Noah's story to signify the CHURCH.

Watch this:

Mat 24:37  But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of 
the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38  For as in the days that were before the flood they were 
eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day 
that Noe entered into the ark,

In the above verse, who is "THEY"?

"...THEY were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage,"

They were the SINNERS.  Undoubtedly.

"Noe" is a singular person.

Now, I know 8 souls were saved that day, but only Noah is mentioned in the
reference. So any reference to the saved would be singular, otherwise
words have lost all meaning.  THEY - sinners - are the SUBJECT
of the grammatical structure.

Mat 24:39  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all 
away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

And "THEM" refers to the sinners.  Agreed?  The flood took THEM - sinners
- the ones who were eating and drinking - away.  So SINNERS
are taken away.  So shall it be in the coming of Jesus Christ (24:37)

Mat 24:40  Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, 
and the other left.

Who was "taken" in Noah's day?  SINNERS.  Who, then, is taken 
in the field?  THE SINNER!!

Everyone says the saint is raptured, but Jesus said the same as occurred
in Noah's day will occur in His coming.  And since the sinners were TAKEN
in Noah's day, to be consistent, one must read that the sinner is
taken in the field.  

Mat 24:41  Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be 
taken, and the other left.

Again in the above, the SINNER is taken.

This whole idea of Noah 's story stressing the catching away
of saints is based upon the idea that the one TAKEN in verses 40 and 41
are the saints, and that is incorrect.  Yes, the rapture
occurs on the day of the Lord, which is AFTER the antichrist is revealed
according to 2 Thess 2, but the Lord is not stressing the catching away of 
the saints in Matthew 24 but rather the destruction upon the sinners.

Hebrews 12 reveals the sinner is taken while the saints STAND.

Heb 12:27  And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing 
of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that 
those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Heb 12:28  Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, 
let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence 
and godly fear:

ANd the parable of teh two houses on the sand and rock show the sinners
fall while the sainst STAND.

And the film "Thief in the Night" was totally incorrect in its presentation,
as it, along with popular "classic prophecy," incorrectly teaches that the
aspect of the thief in the night refers to the STEALING AWAY of the Church
in some kind of secret rapture, where one wakes up and finds one's spouse
having been raptured away silently.  This is not biblical.

When rapture occurs, every eye shall see Him.

The aspect which Jesus is relaying concerning the THIEF in the night
is not the STEALING aspect of a thief but the "unexpected" arrival
of the thief.  Disregard the stealing aspect altogether. It has  nothing
to do with jesus' thoughts.  It is the UNEXPECTEDNESS of the thief's
arrival that Jesus is stressing.  The FLOOD UNEXPECTEDLY took the sinners
in death.  The sinners ate and drank, signifying that life goes on and on 
and on without need awareness of the END.

Mat 24:43  But know this, that if the goodman of the house had 
known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, 
and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

It did not say "If the good man of the house had known the thief
would come to take his belongings, he would have been ready to
be taken himself."  No.  That would stress the aspect of the STEALING.
But the stress is upon the aspect of UNEXPECTANCY.  And it refers to WRATH
at that!  

You say you are pre-wrath, but you also say you 
believe the Church will exit this world BEFORE the Great Tribulation.
That is contradictory.  You mistaken TRIBULATION for WRATH as if they
were synonymous.  And they are not at all.  

Rev 12:12...for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, 
because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The devil's wrath is tribulation, which is always thrown at the Church.
God's wrath has nothing to do with that.  Your "Great Tribulation"
is not all wrath!

> The foreshodowing of what happens to the Jews during this
> period is in the story of Moses (Law/Jews) before Pharoah
> (great man of sin).

And the "church" was in the wrath time of God and taken out at he last form of 
wrath.  THE SAME DAY!

Note that Rev 1:7 mentions only ONE coming of Jesus, in clouds,
as he comes in rapture according to 1 Thess 4:17, with all eyes seeing
him. 

RAPTURE REFERENCES - Compare:

Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, 
and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall 
wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

1 Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up 
together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so 
shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 14:16  And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the 
earth; and the earth was reaped.

Rev 10:7  But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he 
shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath 
declared to his servants the prophets.

1 Cor 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last (SEVENTH)
trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised 
incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

And NO OTHER NOTE IS MENTIONED about His coming in this Semitical
manner of summarizing what the entire book is about before it goes into
detail.

And THEN it even mentions John who is a companion of saints in TRIBULATION.
And John was in the Church!

-- 
In Christ,
Mike Blume
mfblume@ns.sympatico.ca
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/mfblume/mblume.htm