Unity & Diversity - Howard Goss

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You:
> Actually, there are some important interpretive issues
involving the Greek construction of the verse. 

Me: 
This is not the only verse on baptism in the Bible and I
quoted a "few" that specifically state that it is BAPTISM
that washes our sins away "initially" or after repentance,
this remits payment (in token) for our past sins to THAT
POINT.  To interpret Acts 2:38 in the context you state
above is to IGNORE these.  

You:
> But, I'm digressing. I'm not trying to defend this
interpretation, or to debate the proper exegesis of the
passage at all. I'm simply establishing that there have
always been differing views among Apostolics on the exact
salvational significance of baptism, 

Me:
All I said was that if you don't believe what the Apostles
WROTE you are not Apostolic no matter who ELSE says so. If
you say that these people still support the Apostolic
doctrine, whether this is your intention or not you are
endorsing their doctrine.  The Doctrine of salvation by
baptism in water, the water rebirth is an ESSENTIAL and
dividing point of the Apostolic doctrine.

You:
yet always with the common ground of emphasizing Acts 2:38
as the only full and proper response to the gospel.

Me:
The COGIC have this same "common ground" are they saved now
also?  You see, we are quick to divide on the point of
Oneness, as we should be, salvation BY baptism is AS
essential.
 
You:
> Brother, I truly hope you will give your statement some
further reflection.  The core distinctive beliefs common to
all Apostolics have long been the Oneness of God in Jesus
Christ, and repentance, water baptism in Jesus' name and
Spirit baptism as the first steps of the Christian life. 

Me:
I though the "core distinctive belief common to all
Apostolics" was and is the Apostolic doctrine.  You are
either in agreement with this or you are not.  On something
as crutial as baptism, it isn't hard to tell.  Later I
quote Paul and Peter as saying we are saved by baptism.
This is the Word, PERIOD.  If these two AND Jesus say that
we are reborn of the water who are you, or me, or ANYONE
ELSE to say otherwise?  

You:
Interpretive variations naturally exist regarding each of
these doctrines. 

Me:
When an "interpretation" stands against the teaching of the
rest of the Bible it is heresy.  This is not something that
cannot be nailed down: 1 Peter Chapter 3, "21 The like
figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not
the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer
of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of
Jesus Christ:"  Hebrews Chapter 10, "22 Let us draw near
with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our
hearts sprinkled
from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure
water."  1 Corinthians Chapter 6, "11 And such were some of
you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are
justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit
of our God."  And last, since I don't want to list them
all, but certainly not least: Romans 6, "3 Know ye not,
that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were
baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him
by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up
from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also
should walk in newness of life."  This is about as clear as
you can get that we are buried BY BAPTISM into the death of
Jesus.  It is the death of Jesus that paid for our sins,
the Blood washes us but it was the "life" of Jesus that was
"traded" for ours.  When you are 
baptized you are paid for and NOT UNTIL!  When you are
baptized you are washed and NOT UNTIL.  I say again that if
you, me or anyone else doesn't believe this that they do
not believe what the Apostles believed and taught.   

You:
To exclude all other Apostolics holding a different
understanding of the word *for* in Acts 2:38, surely you
are using a rather arbitrary definition of "the Apostolic
doctrine."

Me:
What about these other verses?  What do they SAY?  There is
no other interpretation.

Me B4: 
> >Don't want to hurt anyone but these is da facts.

Me:
I still stand by this.

You: 
> Could it be that what is hurt is the cause of Christ,
when we more readily build walls, rather than bridges,
between blood-washed brethren?

Me:
If the wall is the Word of God then I say build it, offer
to pull ANYONE WHO WILL over to the side of Christ, but by
all means, build it!  
> 
> Bro. Goss also once wrote: "Though we do not compromise,
and though we have convictions of our own, we will not
force our convictions on our brethren, but let love, as
well as doctrine, be the chief factor in governing the
conduct of all."

Me:
We are governed by doctrine given in love. God's Love can
forgive  a flaw but His teaching is perfect.  I really want
to know from the bottom of my heart how it is not showing
the Love of God to say "Brother, the Bible says you are
wrong, and this is so important that you may die if you
don't get this."

Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not
to send peace, but a sword. 

Consider this my brother, if I am right and I don't make
this known to these people, what oh what, could I answer my
God when He asks me "Why did you not tell them?"

I have considered these things friend.

Timothy Litteral
472 Grant St.
Marion Ohio 43302
brotim@gte.net
http://members.tripod.com/~trlitteral