2 Thessalonians Rapture

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Rev. Blume:
> 2 Thess is one of the STRONGEST POST TRIB passages
> in the entire Bible.  Let me show you as I respond to
Timothy.

Me:
Well to say the VERY least I don't see it.

Me B4:
> > In 2 Thes. Paul tells them not to be fooled, that the
"day
> > of Christ" had not come.  This day is commonly known to
be
> > the judgment day of the evil doers of the Earth.  Paul
says
> > not to worry since this day "COULDN'T COME UNTIL" the
MAN of sin was revealed.

Rev. Blume:
> I agree.

 Me:
So far so good.

Rev. Blume:
In 1 Thess 4, Paul discusses the rapture. And then
everybody thinks that issue is ended when 1 Thess 5 begins.
 But that is only an illusion due to the words "CHAPTER 5"
standing between the two APPARENTLY separate issues, which
are not separate at all.

Me:
Not everybody.  I agree that the topic of rapture is
addressed in ch. 5 but only to the extent taht Paul is
saying that it was anything for them to worry about since
it wouldn't happen until it's apointed time.  Peter
establishes this time as almost two thousand years in the
future in 2 Peter Chapter 3, "7 But the heavens and the
earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store,
reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and
perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant
of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a
thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."
and: "15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is
salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according
to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As
also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things;
in which are some things hard to be understood, which they
that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the
other scriptures, unto their own destruction."  Peter says
here that the "end" is a LONG, LONG (nearly 2000 years) way
off in ~50 AD.  That is not true for us.  

I will take advantage of these Scriptures.

> 1 Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the
Lord, that 
> we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord
shall 
> not prevent them which are asleep.

Here the way this is phrased in the Greek it means that
those who are alive at the rapture will not proceed those
that are dead in Christ.  The proceedure is
that "the dead in Christ" shall "rise" first, which is that
they will "stand up" (rise) here on the Earth.  Then we
will ALL
be "caught up" to meet Jesus in the clouds.

> 1 Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven
with a 
> shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the
trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Here is a reference to the Jewish custom of a bridegroom
coming to "redeem" or "collect" his bride.  The bride price
has been paid.  The token, the "seal" or insignia of the
groom had been given to the bride as well as gifts to
express the grooms love.  The groom had gone away, back to
his homeland and had "prepared the place" where he and his
bride would live.  Once this place was prepared he would
return to the house of the bride with his servants but
would not "go in unto the bride" but would have "the friend
of the bride groom" call with a loud voice that the groom
had arrived that the bride would have a short warning to
prepare herself for the call of her husband.  After a breif
pause, there would be a trumpet blast and the groom would
"call his bride" from her old family dwelling.

The bride had to be ready since she knew about when her
husband would come as he would give her a general time or
let her know the "season" in which he would return but not
the EXACT day or hour.  It was a GREAT insult if after the
shout of the favored and true servant of the groom and the
blast of
the trumpet if the bride was found less than utterly
expectant and eager to the exclusion of all else so that
she
would come running out IMMEDIATELY to greet her husband at
HIS call.

We, as the bride of Christ, are told what to expect at the
rapture and believe me, this metaphor was not lost on the
Thessalonians nor is it lost on me, nor I believe Rev.
Blume. 


> 1 Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be
caught up 
> together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the
air: and 
> so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Here is where I ask the reader to stop and consider what
has occured at this point.  There is no reference that
would place this event in time or in reference to the
outpouring of God's wrath and the "tribulation" of Jacob or
Jacob's trouble.  Paul and Peter wrote that the Church
would be tried or endure "tribulation" from the onset of
the Church age on until the end.  I believe that as time
draws to a close and
the rapture gets closer, the Church will suffer more and
more tribulation and we need only think a moment and we
will see that the true Body of Christ is under more of an
assault from Satan that at any other time in history.  The
persecution hasn't begun in earnest in      
America yet but saints are assaulted by the things on TV,
on the radio, at work, in the schools. Legislation is being
inacted which will make it a crime to read the passages
from the Bible that condemns homosexuality and the list
goes on and grows day by day.  I tell you as a fact that
the persecution is coming and soon.  This will not be a
unified effort and the "enemy" will NEVER be clearly
identifiable just as it was in the days of the Apostles but
I digress.

When the rapture occures, the Body of Christ will be
"snatched away" into the clouds.  It speaks of a change
that will occur in an moment (atom) of time.  If the
believers are taken up then who is left?  Only unbelievers.
 Rev. Blume agrees that immediatly following the rapture
comes the outpouring of God's wrath.  I say that this is
the point where Revelation ch. 6 picks up the tale.

What do we have.  We have the "tribulation" of the Church
as the time of the "Gentiles/Church" draws to a close and
ends with the rapture.  If, as even Rev. Blume agrees, the
rapture and the "great day of the Lord" are the same day,
all 
that are left on the Earth are unbelievers.  Among these
unbelievers God "marks" 144,000, 12,000 from each of the
twelve tribes, to "remain" and He "shortens the days"
(DAYS/PLURAL) of His wrath for their sake, otherwise all
fresh would perish.  At the end of this period, Jesus
Himself "rescues" His people (Jews with the testimony of
Christ) and speaks a Word that destroys His enemies.

Jesus then establishes His "Kingdom" in which He AND His
bride reign for 1000 years in which Satan is bound in the
abyss until the end of this "millenium" when Satan will be
losed for a season and then permantly vanquished to the
Lake.

God then speaks a Word and all of creation "melts" and is
"reborn"
and we are with God and Jesus for ever more.

> 1 Th 4:18  Wherefore comfort one another with these
words.
> 1 Th 5:1  But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye
have no need 
> that I write unto you.
> 1 Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of
the Lord so cometh 
> as a thief in the night.
> 1 Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then
sudden 
> destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman
with child; and 
> they shall not escape.

Travail upon a woman.  Let's see, a woman sits in her
living room one day and SUDDENLY from a clear blue sky, she
has a baby and says "Where did that come from?  I never
expected that!" Not hardly!

Who doesn't know that this system of things can't last? 
Nearly everyone is EXPECTING doom in the near future, they
just hope it won't be for a while yet.

Travail upon a woman.  She is pregnant (EXPECTING) and the
pain begins and builds steadily in intensity and power
until her whole "system of things" is wracked with
"travail."

Therefore friends, when you see earthquakes in different
places and wars and rumors of wars and racial violence
BEGIN TO INCREASE in intensity and power with shorter and
shorter REST periods between them until the entire World is
involved in them, Look up because your redemption DRAWETH
NEAR.  It is not HERE yet but it is near and growing NEARER
all the time.

> 1 Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the
children of the 
> day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
> 1 Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but
let us watch 
> and be sober.

Rev. Blume: 
> Let us watch for what?  The time snad the seasons - SIGNS
- which we already
> are aware of.  We know that when they say peace and
safety that trouble
> shall come.  We will be here when they say PEACE AND
SAFETY.  The reason
> it is a sign to us is due to the fact Jesus told us to
WATCH FOR THIS.
> And that implies we will be here when this happens.  And
Paul said THE DAY
> OF THE LORD will occur THEN.
> 
> 1 Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but
let us watch 
> and be sober.
> 1 Th 5:7  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and
they that be 
> drunken are drunken in the night.
> 1 Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober,
putting on the 
> breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the
hope of salvation.
> 1 Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to
obtain 
> salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Me:
To this I say AMEN!

I read the rest of the post but found NOTHING to place the
rapture 
AFTER the outpouring of God's wrath.  As I have said
before, the ONLY way the Revelation makes sense is if the
Church (He that withholds the spirit of antichrist/Body of
Christ) is removed in ch. 6 and the 144,000 are "marked"
for salvation while God unloads on the rest of the
unbelievers.  At the end of this period Jesus stands in the
field of Megiddo with His "saints" and "speaks a Word" that
literally CRUSHES His enemies.

This is when Rev. Blume will raise the "resurrection"
issue.  

Sorry this took so long!

Timothy Litteral
472 Grant St.
Marion Ohio 43302
brotim@gte.net
http://members.tripod.com/~trlitteral