2 Thessalonians Rapture
MF Blume (mfblume@ns.sympatico.ca)
Sat, 15 Mar 1997 23:36:15 -0800
Timothy Litteral wrote:
> Rev. Blume:
> > 2 Thess is one of the STRONGEST POST TRIB passages
> > in the entire Bible. Let me show you as I respond to
> Timothy.
>
> Me:
> Well to say the VERY least I don't see it.
You are not keeping 2 Thess 2 in mind, then. I thought you said you agreed
that the church is raptured AFTER tribulation. You said that Rev 6's
6th seal is where the rapture takes place and that is AFTER tribulation
and now you say you do not agree in Post-tribulation rapture????????
Please clarify your views.
"Post trib" means AFTER the Trib is over, right?
^^^^^
> Me B4:
> > > In 2 Thes. Paul tells them not to be fooled, that the
> "day
> > > of Christ" had not come. This day is commonly known to
> be
> > > the judgment day of the evil doers of the Earth. Paul
> says
> > > not to worry since this day "COULDN'T COME UNTIL" the
> MAN of sin was revealed.
> Rev. Blume:
> In 1 Thess 4, Paul discusses the rapture. And then
> everybody thinks that issue is ended when 1 Thess 5 begins.
> But that is only an illusion due to the words "CHAPTER 5"
> standing between the two APPARENTLY separate issues, which
> are not separate at all.
>
> Me:
> Not everybody. I agree that the topic of rapture is
> addressed in ch. 5 but only to the extent taht Paul is
> saying that it was anything for them to worry about since
> it wouldn't happen until it's apointed time.
First let me stress
that you stated that 2 Thess 2 declares the day of the Lord will occur
AFTER the man of sin is revealed.
^^^^^
2 Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our
Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled,
neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as
that the day of Christ is at hand.
2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day
shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that
man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is
called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth
in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
According to the original thread of 2 Thess2, which you brought up,
the man of sin is revealed BEFORE the day of the Lord. And you claimed
that the church is raptured BEFORE the man of sin is revealed. If not,
please clarify. ^^^^^^
And I showed that the day of the Lord which occurs AFTER the man of
sin is revealed is when the raptiure occurs. Therefore the rapture
occurs AFTER the man of sin is revealed.
> > 1 Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the
> Lord, that
> > we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord
> shall
> > not prevent them which are asleep.
>
> Here the way this is phrased in the Greek it means that
> those who are alive at the rapture will not proceed those
> that are dead in Christ. The proceedure is
> that "the dead in Christ" shall "rise" first, which is that
> they will "stand up" (rise) here on the Earth. Then we
> will ALL
> be "caught up" to meet Jesus in the clouds.
Yes. That is a given.
> > 1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven
> with a
> > shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the
> trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
> > 1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be
> caught up
> > together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the
> air: and
> > so shall we ever be with the Lord.
>
> Here is where I ask the reader to stop and consider what
> has occured at this point. There is no reference that
> would place this event in time or in reference to the
> outpouring of God's wrath and the "tribulation" of Jacob or
> Jacob's trouble. Paul and Peter wrote that the Church
> would be tried or endure "tribulation" from the onset of
> the Church age on until the end. I believe that as time
> draws to a close and
> the rapture gets closer, the Church will suffer more and
> more tribulation
...and the church will see the man of sin revealed, according to 2 Thess 2,
because the man of sin is revealed BEFORE the day of the Lord.
> When the rapture occures, the Body of Christ will be
> "snatched away" into the clouds. It speaks of a change
> that will occur in an moment (atom) of time. If the
> believers are taken up then who is left? Only unbelievers.
> Rev. Blume agrees that immediatly following the rapture
> comes the outpouring of God's wrath. I say that this is
> the point where Revelation ch. 6 picks up the tale.
Yes, but this is also AFTER the man of sin is revealed. Which makes
the SAINTS in Rev 13:7 the church.
> What do we have. We have the "tribulation" of the Church
> as the time of the "Gentiles/Church" draws to a close and
> ends with the rapture.
You have not yet addressed my references to the times of the gentiles
being the church age and yet only 3.5 years according to Rev 11:2.
> If, as even Rev. Blume agrees, the
> rapture and the "great day of the Lord" are the same day,
> all
> that are left on the Earth are unbelievers.
Armageddon occurs at this point.
> Among these
> unbelievers God "marks" 144,000, 12,000 from each of the
> twelve tribes, to "remain" and He "shortens the days"
> (DAYS/PLURAL) of His wrath for their sake, otherwise all
> fresh would perish. At the end of this period, Jesus
> Himself "rescues" His people (Jews with the testimony of
> Christ) and speaks a Word that destroys His enemies.
There is no time for this to occur, for the battle of armageddon
occurs then.
The 144,000, still not proven to be something besides the CHURCH
(but looking very much like the church (Rev 14:1; Heb 12:22)), are
the Church.
Tim, why is Heb 12:22 referencing the CITY, Jerusalem atop
Mt. Zion, as the Church? And with that in mind (church is New Jerusalem)
why is the City's measurements 12 X 12,000 = 144,000 and the number of the
crowd also 144,000 who stand atop Mt. Zion
where the church stands?.
Sounds a lot like the Church to me. And the CHURCH
is called the "Israel of God" (Gal 6:16).. I am reminding you of these
thoughts I brought up time and time again which were left and not
replied to by yourself yet.
> > 1 Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these
> words.
> > 1 Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye
> have no need
> > that I write unto you.
> > 1 Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of
> the Lord so cometh
> > as a thief in the night.
> > 1 Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then
> sudden
> > destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman
> with child; and
> > they shall not escape.
>
> Travail upon a woman. Let's see, a woman sits in her
> living room one day and SUDDENLY from a clear blue sky, she
> has a baby and says "Where did that come from? I never
> expected that!" Not hardly!
>
> Who doesn't know that this system of things can't last?
> Nearly everyone is EXPECTING doom in the near future, they
> just hope it won't be for a while yet.
>
> Travail upon a woman. She is pregnant (EXPECTING) and the
> pain begins and builds steadily in intensity and power
> until her whole "system of things" is wracked with
> "travail."
>
> Therefore friends, when you see earthquakes in different
> places and wars and rumors of wars and racial violence
> BEGIN TO INCREASE in intensity and power with shorter and
> shorter REST periods between them until the entire World is
> involved in them, Look up because your redemption DRAWETH
> NEAR. It is not HERE yet but it is near and growing NEARER
> all the time.
Good point!
But you miss another point I brought up. This context on Matthew 24
actually says....
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things,
know that it is near, even at the doors.
"ALL THESE THINGS." What is included in the "ALL THESE THINGS"
reference?
Let's back up a few verses.
Mat 24:29 Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall
the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and
the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens
shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in
heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they
shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power
and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a
trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven to the other.
Note those words "AFTER THE TRIBULATION". And recall that the reason
we label a particular belief as "POST-TRIBULATION rapture" is because
of the above words, "AFTER THE TRIBULATION". Now, Timothy
has stated that Revelation 6's 6TH SEAL is when the church is raptured.
What occurs at the sixth seal?
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo,
there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth
of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig
tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
That is exactly what occurs in Matthew 24:29-31. But notice that Matthew
says this occurs AFTER TRIBULATION. TImothy, you said that the sixth seal
is when the church is raptured, and then said you did not believe in
post tribulation rapture. And yet Matthew 24:29 says that these events
that occur at the 6th seal according to rev 6 do occur AFTER THE TRIBULATION.
You are contradicting yourself or scripture - one of the two.
Yes you are correct the rapture takes place AFTER the sixth seal.
Here is the rapture after the sixth seals' events:
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall
the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and
the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens
shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in
heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they
shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power
and great glory.
[RAPTURE NEXT-....]
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a
trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven to the other.
There is a trumpet and He comes in clouds just like 1 Thess. 4 says.
And this occurs at the sixth seal according to Rev 6. And all this is AFTER
tribulation!!!!
You are actually saying that Post-Tribulation rapture is the true
doctrine. And then you say it is not post-trib rapture though.
What gives?
> > 1 Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the
> children of the
> > day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
> > 1 Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but
> let us watch
> > and be sober.
>
> Rev. Blume:
> > Let us watch for what? The time snad the seasons - SIGNS
> - which we already
> > are aware of. We know that when they say peace and
> safety that trouble
> > shall come. We will be here when they say PEACE AND
> SAFETY. The reason
> > it is a sign to us is due to the fact Jesus told us to
> WATCH FOR THIS.
> > And that implies we will be here when this happens. And
> Paul said THE DAY
> > OF THE LORD will occur THEN.
>
> Me:
> To this I say AMEN!
Then you must say amen to the words that 2 Thess 2 teaches
that the rapture occurs AFTER the man of sin is revealed.
> I read the rest of the post but found NOTHING to place the
> rapture
> AFTER the outpouring of God's wrath.
Never said it is after wrath. I said its after tribulation -
post-trib, and you said it is not post trib rapture. :-/
What do you beleive, Timothy?
> As I have said
> before, the ONLY way the Revelation makes sense is if the
> Church (He that withholds the spirit of antichrist/Body of
> Christ) is removed in ch. 6 and the 144,000 are "marked"
> for salvation while God unloads on the rest of the
> unbelievers.
That contradicts everything you just said! You said the day of the
Lord is when the rapture occurs. And 2 Thess 2 says that the
man of sin must be revealed BEFORE the day of the Lord, and the man
of sin is withheld. Now you say the CHURCH is involved in withholding
the man of sin and when the church is gone the man of sin is revealed.
Which is it? How can the church be removed for the man of sin to be revealed
BEFORE the day of the Lord if the Church will be here when the Day of the Lord
commences to be taken at that instance?
Is the church removed BEFORE the day of the Lord before the man of sin
is revealed, or is the church removed AFTER the man of sin is revealed
at the point of the day of the Lord? You cannot have it both ways.
> At the end of this period Jesus stands in the
> field of Megiddo with His "saints" and "speaks a Word" that
> literally CRUSHES His enemies.
>
> This is when Rev. Blume will raise the "resurrection"
> issue.
No. This is where I wonder how you can have the church here at the
day of the Lord which occurs AFTER the man of sin is revealed
and yet say the church is gone BEFORE the man of sin is revealed.
You seem to be mixing two different doctrines into it.
2 Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our
Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled,
neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as
that the day of Christ is at hand.
2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day
shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and
that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Notice this:. The day of the Lord will not come UNTIL AFTER
a falling away occurs and AFTER the man of sin is revealed.
And you just said the church will be here at the start
of the day of the Lord. Now you turn around and say
the church will be gone BEFORE the man of sin is revealed which
is BEFORE the day of the Lord.
Please clarify.
--
In Christ,
Mike Blume
mfblume@ns.sympatico.ca
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/mfblume/mblume.htm