We Who? Re: An Apostolic Declaration for the Third Millenium 1

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In a message dated 3/22/99 9:04:18 PM Pacific Standard Time,
stevstar@prodigy.net writes:

> >   We who?  Why does Steve Starcher think he is the voice of the
>  > Apostolics?
>  
>  I do not claim to be the voice of all Apostolics. 

 Then why are you speaking for all Apostolics?  The following is the passage
that I cold not remain silent for.
 "As Apostolics entering the third millennium we affirm our Apostolic
heritage.  We affirm that God spoke to our Apostolic forefathers and
revealed to them the fullness of God in Jesus Christ and the importance
of water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.  We affirm that the first
Apostolics were Christians in another way before they became Apostolics.
We affirm that it is consistent with our Apostolic heritage to:  1)
fellowship with Trinitarians while retaining our Apostolic beliefs;  2)
acknowledge others as Christians while maintaining that they should all
embrace and obey the Apostolic gospel;  3) allow Apostolics to interpret
the New Birth, Acts 2:38, in different ways;  4)  practice different
forms of holiness ; and 5)  believe that Apostolic doctrines are not the
final and infallible formulation of the Christian faith.  We affirm that
this is our Apostolic heritage and that those who embrace it in no way
compromise the Apostolic faith."
 
 Brother Starcher, you have stated in the past that you feel I am Apostolic (I
hope you still believe that), do you think I believe the things you attribute
to "we as Apostolics" in your declaration?  Note the usage of the word "we" in
the context of "as Apostolics?"  This is not the general consensus of the
majority of the Apostolics I know.  Do you exclude them as Apostolics?  You
need to make it clear that it is **your** declaration that you accept those
that have not experienced the New Birth as Christians and not **our**
declaration. 

 Bro. Starcher:
 If I recall correctly, you, Sis Lynne, and
Bro Clifton are the ones who claim to speak for all Apostolics.  In
fact, you three seem to believe that anyone who does not agree with your
version of the Apostolic faith is not really an Apostolic at all!
 
 Mike:
 Please cut and paste where I have said anything like that.  I will hold your
feet to the fire on this one.

 Mike B4:
 Why, when making an Apostolic Declaration of faith for
> the
> third millennium does Steve Starcher refer to Howard Goss as an
> authority and
> never once mention the Apostles Peter or Paul? 

 Bro. Starcher:
 Brother Reed, this was an affirmation of our Apostolic heritage....
 
 Mike:
 There you go again. "An affirmation of **our** Apostolic Faith"?  Why do you
include me in your declaration?  Why can't you say this is Steve Starcher's
declaration?  If I like it, I will say, "Amen Brother, count me in!"  If I
don't, well..
 
 Bro. Starcher:
 ...Howard Goss was one of the "movers and shakers" of the early Apostolic
movement...

 Mike:
 So was Brother Balestero, and Brother I.H. Terry, Brother Hurley, and Bro.
Jimmy Davis, none of which believed Trinitarians to be Christians or saved.
Why don't you include them?  You do believe them to be Apostolics don't you?
 
 Bro. Starcher:
  ...and the first General Superintendent of the United Pentecostal Church.
 
 Mike:
 Big deal.  He was obviously in a position that he had to try and reconcile
two very vocal and two very determined groups. 
 
 Bro. Starcher:
 His [Bro. Goss] faith as an Apostolic should be understood and esteemed. 
 
 Mike: 
 Any more than Carl Ballestero's? ...and back to my point.  Why even bring the
man's name up?  We are Apostolic...Apostle like...  Why not refer to Peter or
Paul or John...you know, one of the Apostles, when making a "declaration" of
Apostolic Faith. 
 
 Bro. Starcher:
 Did you miss my posts on the Apostolic norm for the Church?  I
anticipated some hallelujahs from you and Brother Clifton but somehow
they weren't forthcoming.  
 
 Mike:
 I may have missed it.  After all, I can't read everything you write.  Believe
me, if "halleujahs" are in order, I will give them.
 
 Mike B4:
 Why, when making an
> Apostolic
> Declaration, does Steve Starcher refer to only **one** scripture in
> the Bible
> (Acts 2:38) and then only to say, "allow Apostolics to interpret
> the New Birth, Acts 2:38, in different ways," disemboweling Apostle
> Peter's
> statement on Pentecost.  

 Bro. Starcher:
 This was an affirmation about the historical reality of how Apostolics
interpret Acts 2:38. 
 
 Mike:
 I see in your title "...Third Mellenium 1."  Perhaps I jumped the gun a
little, but it seems the thesis statement to a declaration of Apostolic Faith
would include scriptures or at least a reference to one of the Apostles, and
not the mention of an Apostolic that happened to be a General Superintendent
of **one** of the Apostolic Pentecostal Organizations. 
 
 Bro. Starcher:
 You know that in my expositions of scripture I
have no difficulty with Acts 2:38 as the New Birth.  At the same time I
have to acknowledge that there are a whole lot of Apostolics who believe
otherwise!  
 
 Mike: 
 I have to acknowledge that I don't agree with those that you say "believe
otherwise."
 
 Mike B4:
 Why does Steve Starcher "declare" that "we"
> Apostolics believe those that have not followed Christ into his death,
> burial,
> and resurrection, through repentance, baptism in the name of Jesus
> Christ in
> water, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost, with the evidence of
> speaking in
> other tongues, are Christians? 
 
 Bro. Starcher:
 Brother Reed, it is a historical fact that the first Apostolics
considered themselves Christians before they received the Apostolic
revelations.
 
 Mike:
 It is also a fact Bro. Starcher, that many of those that, "considered
themselves Christians before they received the Apostolic revelations,"
recanted there previous beliefs, and admitted that they, before were lost.
Again, why go back sixty years, when we can go back two thousand?
 
 Bro. Starcher:
 Brother Reed, I haven't noticed any disclaimers in any of your posts
saying that what you write is only your opinion and does not reflect the
faith of other Apostolics.
 
 Mike:
 That is simply because I have not made statements like "we as Apostolics"
when stating my opinions. You can see in the archives were I write, "In my
opinion," or "I feel," or "it seems." You have also heard me say, "I can't
speak for, so and so" However, at times I say, the bible says. However if you
feel I need to enter some sort of disclaimer so you know I don;t think I am
speaking for "all" Apostolics, I will consider this in the future. 
  
  Bro. Starcher;
 I know that my presentation of the Apostolic faith is not representative
of all Apostolics.
 
 Mike:
 Then why didn't you say that. Instead you wrote, "we."

 Bro. Starcher:
 I am really saddened that you do not wish to affirm your Apostolic
heritage Brother Reed. 
 
 Mike:
 Keep your chin up, I'll be okay.
 
 Bro. Starcher:
 I look forward
to hearing the details of your snow trip.  I am going to take about 25
kids camping in Sequoia National Forest in May.  Its going to be a whole
lot of fun!
 
 Mike:
 I did some backpacking several years ago in Sequoia National Park several
years ago and had a great time. It was beautiful. Hope you have fun.
 
 Mike Reed