We Who? Re: An Apostolic Declaration for the Third Millenium 1

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> Mike Reed:

>  Why are you speaking for all Apostolics? 

Brother Reed, the Apostolic Declaration for the Third Millennium will
appear on The Apostolic Pentecostal Journal Web site.  This Web site
states openly  that it is presenting the Apostolic faith
from a moderate perspective.  I do not and cannot speak for
conservatives or liberals.

>  Brother Starcher, you have stated in the past that you feel I am
> Apostolic.

Actually I said that you were one of the best kind of Apostolics! You
are passionately devoted to the Apostolic faith Brother Reed.  I am glad
to be on the same TEAM as you! 

> This is not the general consensus of the majority of the Apostolics I know.  

Please be patient with me Brother Reed.  Building an Apostolic identity
takes
time.  Hopefully The Apostolic Pentecostal Journal Web site will help
build the identity of which I write.  Perhaps it would be in your,
Brother Clifton's, and Sis Lynne's interest to start a competitive Web
site.  After all,
you are going to have a whole lot of material responding to my articles!
And yes, I will link to your site and call you Apostolics, albeit
conservatives.  

> Do you exclude them as Apostolics?  You 
> need to make it clear that it is **your** declaration that you accept
> those
> that have not experienced the New Birth as Christians and not **our**
> declaration.

Bro Reed, we have been over and over this point.  You know that although
I call them Christians out of the respect I have for their faith in
Christ I still maintain that they should obey Acts 2:38.  If anyone is
inconsistent it is you, Brother Clifton, and Sister Lynne.  How can you
deny these people anything which resembles Christianity yet read their
books, use the Bibles they have translated, and sing their songs? 
Brother Reed, to me this is just not intellectually credible! 

>  Bro. Starcher:
>  If I recall correctly, you, Sis Lynne, and
> Bro Clifton are the ones who claim to speak for all Apostolics.  In
> fact, you three seem to believe that anyone who does not agree with
> your
> version of the Apostolic faith is not really an Apostolic at all!

>  Please cut and paste where I have said anything like that.  I will
> hold your
> feet to the fire on this one.

Brother Reed, in this post you refuse to acknowledge the possibility
that others possess real Christian faith.  You also are quite upset that
I am tolerant of other Apostolics by acknowledging their right to be
called Apostolics even when their theology diverges from the New Birth
message.  But I stand corrected.  You do not believe that everyone who
disagrees with you is going to hell.  I am very impressed that you are
tolerant in this way and anticipate a kinder, gentler Mike Reed in
future posts!

 

>  There you go again. "An affirmation of **our** Apostolic Faith"?  Why
> do you
> include me in your declaration? Why can't you say this is Steve
> Starcher's
> declaration?  

Brother Reed, what I am doing here is building a "Moderate Apostolic"
identity.  I want others, including Trinitarians to view the Apostolic
faith from a moderate perspective.  I am  building an identity!  Now, if
you do not like this then you should get very busy because I am going to
be posting a whole lot of "Moderate" articles to the internet and
challenging your conservative  Apostolic identity!

Also, I openly state the perspective I am coming from, AKA Moderate. 
Will you state openly that you are coming from a conservative
perspective?  


>If I like it, I will say, "Amen Brother, count me in!" If I
> don't, well..

This is what I like about you Brother Reed, I know that you will change
your theology if you are convinced it is according to Scripture.  I am
working at this.  I have a few new fresh approaches in mind so once
again, please be patient!


>  Bro. Starcher:
>  Did you miss my posts on the Apostolic norm for the Church?  I
> anticipated some hallelujahs from you and Brother Clifton but somehow
> they weren't forthcoming.
> 
>  Mike:
>  I may have missed it.  After all, I can't read everything you write.
> Believe
> me, if "halleujahs" are in order, I will give them.

Bro Reed, this really disappoints me.  How can you assume that you have
my theology "tuned in" and "figured out" when you acknowledge that you
don't read my posts?  

To be honest, this is why I have stopped dialoguing with Brother
Clifton.  I tire of individuals not reading my posts, attributing to me
beliefs that I do not possess, and desiring me to continually answer the
same questions.  Brother Reed, please reread my posts.  I hope to have
them available on The Apostolic Journal Web site soon.  Then be specific
with your questions.  A shotgun approach just doesn't work well in this
type of dialogue!



>  I see in your title "...Third Mellenium 1." 
> Perhaps I jumped the gun.

I have noticed that you are a little quick on the draw!


> Bro. Starcher:
>  You know that in my expositions of scripture I
> have no difficulty with Acts 2:38 as the New Birth.  At the same time
> I
> have to acknowledge that there are a whole lot of Apostolics who
> believe
> otherwise!
 
>  Mike:
>  I have to acknowledge that I don't agree with those that you say
> "believe
> otherwise."

Brother Reed, I have stated this before, but it must be said again.  It
is very obvious that your primary concern is not having individuals
baptized in Jesus name, not having individuals filled with the Holy
Spirit and speak in tongues, not having people receive the revelation of
the fullness of God in Christ.  You primary concern is not evangelism,
converting individuals to Jesus Christ the Apostolic way.  Your primary
concern is not discipleship, teaching individuals how to serve Jesus
Christ.  Your primary concern is defending your theological system,
which I have identified with Fundamentalism.  This is also true of
Brother Clifton and Sis Lynne.  

This is a tragedy.  This is not the essence of Christianity.  This is
not Scriptural.  This is not Apostolic. And this is what is hindering
the spread of the Apostolic faith.  This is what is keeping multitudes
from becoming Apostolics. This is what is driving 1000's, yes 1000's of
Apostolics away from the Apostolic movement.  I can no longer be silent
and watch the movement I love and cherish hemorrhage by the blind
devotion of Apostolics to a theological system and a philosophy.  I will
present the Apostolic faith from a moderate perspective and, unlike you,
Brother Clifton, and Sis Lynne rejoice whenever someone obeys the
Apostolic gospel, whether or not they agree with my theological system.


>  Mike B4:

>  Why does Steve Starcher "declare" that "we"
>  Apostolics believe those that have not followed Christ into his
> death,
>  burial,
>  and resurrection, through repentance, baptism in the name of Jesus
> > Christ in
> > water, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost, with the evidence of
> > speaking in
> > other tongues, are Christians?

This is a moderate perspective Brother Reed.  I requested a post
outlining your perspective.  This should be very easy for you to produce
as it seems that you define yourself as something other than a
conservative.  Please Brother Reed, make your arguments in the context
of what I have written and respond to what I have written.

> 
>  Bro. Starcher:
>  Brother Reed, it is a historical fact that the first Apostolics
> considered themselves Christians before they received the Apostolic
> revelations.
>

>  Mike:
>  It is also a fact Bro. Starcher, that many of those that, "considered
> themselves Christians before they received the Apostolic revelations,"
> recanted there previous beliefs, and admitted that they, before were
> lost.

This is another interesting statement Brother Reed which we have already
discussed.  I believe it was after you posted your conversion experience
which quoted your total "lostness" until your salvation experience had
been perfected.  Even when God's Holy Spirit indwelt you and you spoke
in tongues you were separated from God, a sinner, and worthy of
damnation until you were baptized in Jesus name.  To say this is to
minimize the work of God as you are led and guided into the fullness of
his salvation.

But, and this is the real problem with your statement, you seem to think
that all Apostolics made this theological transition together.  THEY DID
NOT!  What actually happened was that the spiritual dynamic of tolerance
which was present within the Apostolic movement, which led to the
formation of the UPCI, was abandoned by conservatives who  desired to
advocate uniformity of theology over the advancement of the Apostolic
faith.  In other words they chose to contend for their theological
distinctives and sacrifice the unity of the Apostolic movement.  They
abandoned the unity of the Spirit and sought a unity theology which
never existed in the Apostolic movement.  This is the passion which
drives you, Brother Clifton, and Sis Lynne. And let us be honest and see
where it has taken us!  It is estimated that 80% of Apostolic young
people leave the church!  The UPCI has not grown enough in the last 10
years to account for the discipling of its own children into the
denomination!  The Apostolic movement is vilified and labeled as a
cult!  Apostolics endure schism after schism as they separate over every
conceivable doctrine!  Brother Reed, this breaks my heart!  How can you
lead the young people the Lord has entrusted to you down this path?  How
can you hide your head in the sand like an Ostrich and not see what has
happened to the Apostolic movement as a result of your theology? 

> 
>  Bro. Starcher:
>  Brother Reed, I haven't noticed any disclaimers in any of your posts
> saying that what you write is only your opinion and does not reflect
> the
> faith of other Apostolics.
> 
>  Mike:
>  That is simply because I have not made statements like "we as
> Apostolics"
> when stating my opinions.

This is wonderful Brother Reed!  This means that you recognize that your
theology is not infallible, that it is just one Apostolic's opinion! 
Maybe your little dialogues with me are  bearing fruit!


>   Bro. Starcher;
>  I know that my presentation of the Apostolic faith is not
> representative
> of all Apostolics.
> 
>  Mike:
>  Then why didn't you say that. Instead you wrote, "we."

Brother Reed, I like to have people agree with me.  Especially Sis
Starcher!  This is an affirmation of an Apostolic identity!  "We" means
that we agree that this is our identity as members of the Apostolic
Pentecostal Christian community.  What is so bad about some Apostolics
agreeing to agree on certain aspects of the Apostolic faith?  If you do
not agree, then do not sign the Declaration!  If you do not agree then
get busy and present some positive statements about the Apostolic faith
rather than spending all of this time critizing me.  Or you could form a
new Apostolic group, "The Anti-Starcherites".  All they would have to do
is deny all of the affirmations I have made and all of the theology in
my posts!

> 
>  Bro. Starcher:
>  I am really saddened that you do not wish to affirm your Apostolic
> heritage Brother Reed.
> 
>  Mike:
>  Keep your chin up, I'll be okay.

I know you have a heart after God Brother Reed!  My criticism may be
harsh, but they are made in love and in devotion to the common Apostolic
faith we share!

> 
>  Bro. Starcher:
>  I look forward
> to hearing the details of your snow trip.  I am going to take about 25
> kids camping in Sequoia National Forest in May.  Its going to be a
> whole
> lot of fun!
> 
>  Mike:
>  I did some backpacking several years ago in Sequoia National Park
> several
> years ago and had a great time. It was beautiful. Hope you have fun.

Your snow trip was awesome!  I cried when I read of your young people
recieving the Holy Ghost and dedicating themselves to the Lord in an
Apostolic way.

Sequoia is a beautiful park.  The world's largest living thing, the
General Sherman Tree, is found there.  We will be camping at Lodgepole
at 7000 feet and praying that it doesn't snow and that the bears stay
away.

The only "backing" I will do on this trip is with my 4x4 into the
campsite HAHA!  

But I will be venturing out into Monterey Bay with my Sea Kayak over
Easter vacation.  I have some of my best sessions of prayer when bobbing
up and down in  7 and 8 foot swells, trying to remain upright, and
knowing that Monterey Bay is a favorite feeding ground for the Great
White Shark!

God bless you Brother Reed!

Steve