Israel (2)

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To: cf01@zeus.odyssey.net (Chris Foster)
Subject: Israel
From: wcopes@communique.net (Walter Copes)

 CF> Is God going to restore the nation of Israel to a place of pre-
 CF> eminence at some time in the future. I believe that He must. He
 CF> made some promises to Abraham that He will fulfill. Those prom-
 CF> ises did not have an if clause associated with them when God made
 CF> them. For instance, "In the same day the LORD made a covenant
 CF> with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from
 CF> the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates"
 CF> (Genesis 15:18).

     Perhaps I can cut to the chase here. Apparently it is not what I
believe that is causing the problem but rather my inability to articu-
late it.

     I am in complete agreement with your state above.

     I see God's dealing with the nation of Israel (meaning Jews)
today not in terms of individual salvation but rather in setting the
political stage for whatever future events that are to come. From what
I understand the main purpose of the Tribulation (time of Jacob's
trouble, Daniel's 70th Week, or whatever one wants to call that peri-
od) will be a time when God uses the events of the Book of Revelation
to bring individual Jews to the point where a remnant (10%?) will turn
to Him and be saved (redeemed). This remnant will then constitute the
nation of Israel and God will fulfill His promises to Abraham through
the remnant who apparently will remain faithful thereafter.

     At the present time there are several times more Jews in Israel
who are professed atheist than there are professing "Christian" of all
denominations. At this time the nation of Israel is spiritually dead.
Their state of unbelief has cut them off from God's spiritual bless-
ings. (Possibly there is some physical blessing so that they will
prosper in order for the nation to continue as a viable economic
entity.) There seems to be some divine intervention in their wars with
the Arabs since they are outnumbered about 40 to 1.

 CF> As you can see God never intended to reject Israel or replace
 CF> her.  Yet Paul admits they are......dead.  Israel dead?  No, Ra
 CF> cial Israel having faith in their lineage and not Christ is dead.
 CF> For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile!

     That is the way I see it. It was not God's desire that unbelief
should cause their temporary rejection.

 CF> How do you afford Racial Israel special favor without Christ
 CF> while the Bible calls them Antichrist!

     No, not favor. Simply setting the stage so that He can keep His
promises to Abraham. What God is doing is not for their sakes but
rather for the sake of Abraham to whom He made a promise that He will
keep.

 WC> the Israelites refused to possess the land God promised they
 WC> wandered in the wilderness for 40 years until an entire genera-
 WC> tion died. That land would include most of Iraq west of the Eu-
 WC> phrates, Jordan, most of Syria and a big chunk of eastern Egypt.
 WC> Any belief that we should not bare arms will have to be set aside
 WC> because these people will not simply hand over their land. The
 WC> very existence of their god Allah would hang in the balance.

 CF> I can see that your promise land is of the earth earthy, along
 CF> with you warfare.

     It is neither my land nor my warfare. I have a different promise.
(John 14:1-3). The land will be possessed by the physical descendants
of Abraham at some point in the future.

 CF> There is no argument from me that there is a distinction.  The
 CF> argument is in the application of making the distinction!  You
 CF> want to grant natural Israel God's blessing for you write that he
 CF> will restore them to a place of prominence.  By what criteria?
 CF> Progenitry?  Lineage?  What?

     There will be no blessing until there is belief. That will be the
criteria. The blindness in part will be removed and there will be a
believing remnant.

 CF> I take it then that you believe in a double fulfillment of Mat-
 CF> thew 24:1-3 or that these scriptures are not in reference to 70
 CF> AD but are in reference to a future temple.  What do you think of
 CF> the Dome of the Rock?

     Rather I believe in a complete fulfillment rather than a partial
fulfillment and calling the partial the complete.

     I think the Dome of the Rock presents a problem. From a biblical
perspective it cannot be tolerated to remain in its present position.
For the Arabs their religion will not allow the temple to be built in
such close proximity with the dome of the Rock. The very existence of
a Jewish nation in Palestine is a serious threat to the religion of
Islam for it demonstrates that Allah is a liar and not a true god at
all. But we already knew he wasn't. <g>

 CF> Jesus Christ has died once and for all and his death is the *on-
 CF> ly* true authority that could cause the sacrifice to *truly*
 CF> cease.  To me it is interesting that the sacrifice is caused to
 CF> cease 'In the midst of the week', which answers to the ministry
 CF> of Jesus Christ lasting but 3 and 1/2 years.  The word cease is
 CF> used in the scripture in the sense of desist, rid, take away.  I
 CF> believe Christ came to obsolete the sacrifice, cause the oblation
 CF> to cease through his efficacious death upon the cross Hebrews
 CF> 10:10.  You have stated you believe it is some other (prince)
 CF> that has this authority.

     The sacrifices continued up until the temple was destroyed.
However, they served no purpose after Jesus was crucified. As Shake-
speare said it was just sound and fury signifying nothing. A better
covenant had been established. The new will was in effect. While it is
entirely possible that the Jews will build another temple and offer
sacrifices it will be just as meaningless as far as salvation is
concerned.

 CF> It is interesting that you will create a gap between the 69th and
 CF> the 70th but ignore the first segment between the first 7 weeks
 CF> and 62 weeks.  Where do you get your authority to place two
 CF> thousand years between the 69th and 70th, but do not place any
 CF> gap between the 7th and 62 weeks.  It seems to me very inconsis-
 CF> tent to force a gap in one place but not another within the same
 CF> setting.

     Two major events are said to take place after the sixty-ninth
week and before the seventieth week: the cutting off of the Messiah
and the destruction of the city and the temple in Jerusalem.  These
two events did not take place in the seventieth week, for that is not
introduced to us until verse twenty-seven, but in an interval between
the sixty-ninth and seventieth week. It will be observed that the
cutting off of the Messiah took place on or only a few days after the
sixty-ninth week terminated, but the destruction of the city and
temple did not take place until 70 A.D., or about forty years after
the termination of the sixty-ninth week. If a few days gap be admit-
ted, it is not difficult to concede the possibility of a gap of forty
Years. If one of forty years is admitted, it is not difficult to see
that the gap may extend over the present age.

     The New Testament teaching that Israel has been set aside (Mat-
thew 23:37-39; Romans 11:11-32) until the restitution of God's dealing
with them demands a gap between the last two weeks. Inasmuch as God
will fulfill that which He promised literally, He must fulfill those
things with the nation.  It is seen then that there must be a gap
between their rejection and the consummation of these promises.

     Then there are the promised blessings associated with the second
coming of Christ (Romans 11:26-27). If there were no gap, the Lord
would have returned three and a half or seven years after His death to
fulfill the promises. Since His coming is still anticipated there must
be a gap between the last two weeks of the prophecy.

     Coupling this with Acts 1:6-8, we see that a whole age of unde-
termined duration is to intervene between the sixty-ninth and seventi-
eth weeks of the prophecy. The only conclusion must be that the events
of the seventieth week are as yet unfulfilled and await a future
literal fulfillment.

 CF> It seems to me that because you are predisposed to your concept
 CF> you are willing to ignore this and force the gap between the next
 CF> section of 69 and 70 without regard to the first section in which
 CF> there is no gap. Inconsistent don't you think!

     No, brother, I think that on this one I am accurate. I have sound
reasons for believing that there is a gap. In fact, the events of
history have already forced a gap between the 69 week and the 70th
week. Messiah was cut off **after** the 69 weeks. The destruction of
Jerusalem and the temple occurred 40 years later. Daniel 12:11 gives a
time frame for the daily sacrifice being taken away and the Abomina-
tion of Desolation being **setup** (this precludes the event being the
destruction of the temple). We do know that the daily sacrifice was
not taken away. Sacrifices were continued in the temple until Titus'
army destroyed it. Thus we have a definite gap here of 3 1/2 years.

 WC> Dan 9:24

 CF> WHO finished the transgression and when did He do it?

     This promise was made to the people of Daniel (the Jews). The
Jews are still transgressing. It we extend it the only ones that are
doing better are the believers who are at least trying to live for
God. Transgressions continue to this very day. They have not stopped.

CF> WHO made an end of sins and when did He do it?

     Sin has not ended. There is considerable Scripture devoted to sin
and overcoming sin in the New Testament.

 CF> WHO made reconciliation for iniquity and when did He do it?

     Jesus made a reconciliation for iniquity. Even though iniquity
continues to this day there is reconciliation.

 CF> WHO brought in everlasting righteousness and when did he do it?

     Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is **none righteous**, no,
not one:

 CF> WHO was anointed the most Holy and when was it?

     I have been down this road before. The "most Holy" is not a
person or being but a thing--an it. It is here that the belief that
the reference is to the anointing of a rebuilt temple which is an "it"
or a "thing."

 CF> If your answer is not Christ in his incarnation, Christ at cal-
 CF> vary, Christ in his earthly ministry, and Christ in his
 CF> resurrection, be very careful that you do not mar the power of
 CF> the cross, with your notion of creating gaps of time to fit your
 CF> prophecy.

We know Him for who and what He is not only in knowledge but also in
relationship. The bad news is that the rest of the world does not. The
good news is that they will when comes back to straighten out the
wicked world and removes the curse from it.

 CF> On the lighter side of things..

 CF> Have you ever noticed Larkins outline?  The one with the statue
 CF> with head of gold, chest of silver etc. etc.?   Have you ever
 CF> noticed how long the toes are on that dude?

As a matter of fact, I have. How would you like to trim the toenails
on that dude? <g>

 CF> Whenever I see that chart I say, 'man look at them toes! He's got
 CF> some toes don't he. Wow how could you function with toes like
 CF> that? :-)

     Maybe but a tutu on him and see if he can dance? <G>

 CF> The reason I believe the toes are sooooo long is so that Larkin
 CF> can extend the seventy weeks into more that the 490 years deter
 CF> mined and so fit his paradigm of making 490 years into 2490
 CF> years.  And if not 2490 maybe 2780 or 3766 or .....well i'm sure
 CF> you get the point.

     One thing for sure. It ain't over til its over and until it is
over we won't know for sure.

 CF> For examlple if the gap works out to be longer that 2200 years
 CF> then of course you change it, or if it works out to 2500 years
 CF> then you can change it again.

     Actually there is no reason to change it at all. It simply says
that the gap last from then until---however long that may be. However,
there are other portions of doctrine that will cause real faith prob-
lems if the process goes on very much longer. The only thing we can
say with assurance is that we are about 2000 years closer to the
coming of the Lord than the early church. I don't plan to sell my
house and remove to a mountain top and wait. Rather go about the
Masters business and reach as many as possible while it is still light
enough to work.

 CF> I will never understand the convoluted machinations of individu-
 CF> als that will not accept the plain sense of this prophecy....490
 CF> years are 490 years no more no less.  If you put a gap between
 CF> them they cease to be 490 years.  In Genesis between 1 and 2 you
 CF> might have some room to make an assumption, but certainly there
 CF> is no room in Daniel.......But if that makes your paradigm come
 CF> tumbling dowm, hold to your 2000 year gap theory.  I really do
 CF> not feel comfortable making the scriptures stand on thier head to
 CF> fit my concepts.

     Well, time will tell. When it's over we will know for sure.

Walter Copes
The joy of the Lord is my strength
(wcopes@communique.net)
Walter L Copes