Depression

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> Before I was saved I personally sought out "medication" with visits to
> doctors, and was quite easily given access to various medications
> through complaining about being unhappy, depsondent, unsatisfied,
> anxious, restless, oncessive, fearful ... etc, etc. Was I ? Sure. Why
> ? Something to do with my life, as I now know.

Allow me to state that I WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE that, without
knowing Jesus, any kind of medication, drinking, counseling,
therapy and what-not won't do a lick of good in treating the
fact that mankind is messed-up without Jesus.

Before I was saved, I suffered from severe asthma.  Since
receiving the Holy Ghost (seven years ago next month! :-), I
have not suffered from any asthma attacks!  I no longer carry
around the albuterol.

Likewise, I have known people who were severely depressed who,
since knowing Jesus, have been completely delivered from that
condition.  I know people who, from a wordly point of view,
should be *totally* messed up because of the abuse and life-
styles they lived prior to them being saved.  I thank God for
their deliverance.

But I also personally know people who are saints of God who
nonetheless live with a constant sadness.  For whatever reason,
they just can't get over it.  One woman I know kept visiting the
pastor for prayer and encouragement.  People in the church try
to encourage her and pray for her.  The woman eventually stopped
asking for prayer because she feels so incredibly guilty being a
"burden" on the church, even though she has done absolutely
nothing wrong and the church is there to encourage her.  She
lives seperate from the world.  She is faithful to the church
and ministry.  She is one of the kinder people I know.  She
spends hours in prayer in her home, interceding for God-knows
how many people.  She is *always* bringing visitors to church
(mostly kids that she babysits and their parents).

Yet she remains deeply depressed.  And she feels guilty all the
time, because she feels her constant depression is a result of
a lack of faith or because of some secret sin that even she
doesn't know about.

> Furthermore, as callous as it may seem, suicide is simply another
> terrible sin, the sin of murder.

I agree that suicide is (self) murder.  It's why it takes strong
intervention when someone begins talking about taking their own
life.  (No, I'm not talking about medicating them, and I still
believe in personal responsibility).

> uncommon for me to meet parents who easily tell me that their children
> are affected by ADD, and have altered thier childrens behavior with
> Ritalin...

We live in an imperfect world.  OF COURSE people will abuse any
kind of medication -- or anything else for that matter.  People
abuse the Word of God and do horrible things in the name of
Christ -- does that mean we should throw that out too?

> but I find the entire world of modern pharmacy scarier than any "chip
> implant" by a LONG SHOT.

I agree that the spectre of government or other authoritarian
control under the guise of "medical therapy" is realistic and
frightening.  But is that a reason to discard what might other-
wise be something which is useful?

> before us. We are also alert to the newworthy mention of the children
> of Christian Scientists and other cultic groups who see a major
> conflict. 

For example, much of the bogus information on "Prozac toxicity,"
addiction, and recreational use has been spread by Christian
Scientists and (to a lesser extent) Scientologists.

> God miaculously deliver time after time. One very famous Apostolic in
> the OK area died of cancer without remidy for pain, after many
> healings. He never demanded that anyone else do as he had done, but
> set an example of relying solely on God. I will never pronounce his
> life to have been misdirected. I am not sure I would or could do the
> same, but I am glad to know that there have been good men and women
> who did not cling to life with such great determination that they did
> not have a greater passion for their convictions. 

And thank the LORD for such forerunners who are examples of
great faith for us.  I too will not question their faith.  I
already told of people I know who were delivered from their
maladies.  I testified earlier this week of individuals who were
healed of cancer and blindness this last weekend!

And then you imply in a rather disingenious way that I lack
faith?

> 2Ch 16:12 And Asa in the thirty and ninth year of his reign was
> diseased in his feet, until his disease [was] exceeding [great]: yet
> in his disease he sought not to the LORD, but to the physicians.

And there are many other examples in Scripture of people
depending on their own machinations and wisdom rather than the
LORD.

> That is the modern concept. However, we notice that there is still
> rampant depression and mental maladies. Smallpox is rare.

I perceive you attempt to classify mental illness and other
physiological ailments differently because mankind has managed
to eliminate smallpox.  Maybe we'll build a tower to heaven for
our next achievement.

The world might pat itself in the back for getting rid of
smallpox, but their are over 100 other viral diseases known to
exist.  There is no cure for any viral disease other than
letting the disease run its course.  For many viral diseases
such as Ebola or AIDS, "running its course" means death for the
victim.  50,000 people die every year in the United States of
influenza.  The Centers for Disease Control has had to deal with
newly emerging diseases with increasing frequency (Hanta virus,
Ebola, HIV, etc).

> On the contrary, it suggests to me just what all people with
> metaphysical orientation have always believed: that is, the organic
> function of the body is spiritually influenced. The bodies health can

Which is why medication alone will not work.  I did not
explicitly point this out, but I believe Bro Deckard did an
adequate job presenting this case.

Bro Bassett, I will agree that oft-times a feeling of
"depression" is conviction from the Lord, or the result of
sinful activity, or just the state of being seperated from the
LORD.  This is a foundational problem that no medication will
help with.

> Through the gospel the name of Jesus Christ can and will deliver, and
> set any person at liberty. This will be seen as primitivism,

Now your just being a martyr, Bro Bassett.  Nobody accused
anyone of "being behind the times" or any such nonsense.  You
have many excellent points; there is no need to hide behind a
"poor little ol' me" kind of defense.  I have very high degree
respect for you and your ability to effectively convey the
gospel message.

> have taken some, a few years after I was saved - on a bad day when a
> relative recommended that I needed to "chill" an offered me thier
> "medication" (anti-depressant).  There was a very significant
> reaction, and I will NEVER do it again.

I'll have to admit I find this very hard to believe.

 *  What was the antidepressant?
 *  Any antidepressant takes at least 5 days to _begin_ to have any
    effect when taken at prescribed dosages.
 *  Taking any controlled medication without a prescription is, at
    best, extremely unwise.

> the lottery than get to think that perfect peace is the promise of
> those who "keep their mind on Prozac".

Cocaine delivers "perfect peace" (for a short while).  Prozac
and the other antidepressants do not deliver peace of mind or a
feeling of salvation or anything like that.  They do help in
many cases to bring the severely depressed individual from a
state of constant sadness.  It brings that person to have a more
normal range of emotions.

> individuals believe this. Don't get excited, for them to even consider
> reducing their medication would take a major act of God working
> against their own will power at the moment.

And I will praise God with you when they are delivered from
their dependency on cigarettes and medication.

> God. However threats do tend to result in some prophets hanging out in
> caves (1 Kings 18:4). <---  ( a little bible study there )

Absolutely!

> We have a number of biases. We used to call them convictions, but

An ad-hominem, Bro Bassett, which was completely unnecessary.
I have convictions.

By its very nature, this is an emotionally charged subject, and
we both have strong feelings about it, but lets keep the
discussion at a friendly level, please.

Richard M.