Jacob's Trouble aka The Tribulation

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From: Joe Chancellor <browser@wt.net>
To: higher-fire@prairienet.org
Subject: Source of the Great Tribulation

> Because the posttribulation rapturist refuses to distinguish between
> the tribulations of this age, which the church will endure, and the
> unique and unprecedented period of tribulation which shall come on
> the earth, they insist that the rigors of the tribulation come only
> through the agency of man or of Satan, but disassociate God from the
> period entirely.

 JC> The difference that THIS posttribulationist sees is that the time
 JC> of tribulation that is coming upon the church is a time of....as
 JC> Brother Litteral as said I believe...Of satan pulling out all the
 JC> stops.

     What more can Satan do that he has not already done. In the early days
of the church Christians were nailed to crosses and at the same time slowly
roasted while red hot irons were pressed against the private parts of their
children so they could here them scream. They were supposed to recant their
faith. Some did. Others sang hymns during the ordeal. We have the Spanish
Inquisition of the past several centuries. We have the Nazi death camps of
this century.

 JC> His days being numbered and the kingdom he is desiring to build
 JC> coming to power he is the source of the tribulation that comes on
 JC> the church...now during this time there 6 of the seven of the
 JC> vials seals and trumpets poured out.

     According to Revelation 12, the object of satanic attack during the
tribulation period is "the woman" who produced the child. Since this child
is born "to rule all nations with a rod of iron" (verse 5), it can only
refer to Christ, the one whose right it is to rule. The Psalmist confirms
this interpretation in Psalm 2:9, which is admittedly Messianic. The one
from whom Christ came can only be Israel. In short Christ came out of Israel
not out of the church. At the time Satan is cast out of heaven (Revelation
12:9) he goes forth with "great wrath because he knoweth that he hath but a
short time" (Revelation 12:12). The church must not be here, for,
consequently precious to Christ, it would be the object of satanic attack
then as it has been all through the age (Ephesians 6:12) if it were present.
The reason Satan turns to Israel can only be explained by the absence of the
church from that scene.

 JC> ..Just as with pharoah....UPON egypt but not touching Gods peo-
 JC> ple

     I disagree with your interpretation here.

    "I will keep thee from the hour of temptation" (Revelation 3:10). John
uses the word TEREO. Thayer says that when this verb is used with EN it
means "to cause one to persevere or stand firm in a thing"; while when used
with EK it means "by guarding to cause one to escape in safety out of."
Since EK is used here it would indicate t hat John is promising a removal
from the sphere of testing, not a preservation through it. This is further
substantiated by the use of the words "the hour." God is not only guarding
from the trials but form the very hour itself when these trials will come on
those earth dwellers. Thiessen comments on this passage:

...we want to know what is the meaning of the verb "will keep" (TERESO) and
of the preposition "from" (EK). Alford says on the preposition EK, that it
means "out of the midst of: but whether by immunity from, or by being
brought safe through, the preposition does not clearly define."...Thus he
points out that grammatically the two terms can have the same meaning, so
that Revelation 3:10 may mean, not "passing unscathed through the evil." but
"perfect immunity from it."...the grammar permits the interpretation of
absolute immunity from the period. Other scholars say the same thing as to
the preposition EK (out of, from). Buttmann-Thayer says that EK and APO
"often serve to denote one and the same relation," referring to John 17:15;
Acts 15:29; Revelation 3:10 as examples of this usage. Abbott doubts "if in
the LXX and John, EK always implies previous existence in the evils from
which one is delivered when used with SOZO and TERESO" (i.e. with the verbs
TO SAVE and TO KEEP). Westcott says regarding EK SOZO (to save from) that it
does not necessarily imply that that is actually realized out of which
deliverance is granted (cf. II Corinthians 1:10), though it does so commonly
(John 12:27). Similarly we read in I Thessalonians 1:10 that Jesus delivers
us "from (EK) the wrath to come." This can hardly mean protection IN IT; it
must mean exemption FROM IT. It would seem, then, to be perfectly clear that
the preposition "from" may be taken to mean complete exemption from that
which is predicted. It is clear that the context of other statements in
Scripture require that this be the interpretation. As for the context, note
that the promise is not merely to be kept from the temptation, but from the
HOUR of temptation, i.e. from the period of trial as such, not only from the
trial during the period. And, again, why should the Apostle write EKTES
HORAS (from the hour), as he did, when he might easily have written EN TE
HORA (in the hour), if that is what he meant to say? Surely the Spirit of
God guided him in the very language he employed. Henry C. Thiessen, WILL THE
CHURCH PASS THROUGH THE TRIBULATION?, (New York; Loizeaux Brothers, 1941),
pp. 22-24].

     I Thessalonians 5:9. "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to
obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." The contrast in this passage is
between light and darkness, between wrath and salvation from that wrath. I
Thessalonians 5:2 indicates that this wrath and darkness is that of the Day
of the Lord. A comparison of this passage with Joel 2:2; Zephaniah 1:14-18;
Amos 5:18 will describe the darkness mentioned here as the darkness of the
seventieth week. A comparison with Revelation 6:17; 11:18; 14:10, 19; 15:1,
7; 16:1, 19 will describe the wrath of the Day of the Lord. Paul clearly
teaches in verse 9 that our expectation and appointment is not to wrath and
darkness, but rather to salvation, and verse 10 indicates the method of that
salvation, namely, to "live together with him."

     I Thessalonians 1:9-10. Again Paul clearly indicates our expectation is
not wrath, but the revelation of "his son from heaven." This could not be
unless the Son were revealed before the wrath of the seventieth week falls
on the earth.

 JC> and as the seventh trumpet is blown and God beginst to pour out
 JC> the "Fierceness of His Wrath" He comes with those saints who were
 JC> dead in Christ...and then WE which are alive and remain shall be
 JC> caught up to meet Him in the air...and we will continue on with
 JC> Him as he comes to destroy those who destroy the earth.

     Zechariah 14:5 (KJV)  ...and the LORD my God shall come, and all the
saints with thee.

     When Jesus returns to the earth at the Second Advent ALL the saints
will be with Him not just some.

     I also submit that the context of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 does not
allow for a time interval beyone the twinkling of an eye between the
resurrection of the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain.

 > The tribulation period will witness the wrath of Satan in his ani-
 > mosity against Israel (Revelation 12:12-17)

 JC> Yes... But one must understand that he is not a Jew who is one
 JC> outwardly but who is one inwardly...Jesus was the True
 JC> Isreal...we are his seed...we are the the Isreal of God...the
 JC> 42nd Generation...God is not concerned with any particular
 JC> nation...only one HOLY nation and a PECULIAR people.

     If so then God lied to Abraham.

 JC> GOd made many promises to Abraham and his seed and the church was
 JC> the fulfillment of those promises..

     The Gentile believers of the present day, while reckoned as A seed to
Abraham, are not THE seed in which national promises are to be fulfilled.
This is well proved by observing certain facts in the New Testament usage of
words. (1) National Israel and the Gentiles are contrasted in the New
Testament (Acts 3:12; 4:8; 21:28; Romans 10:1). The fact that Israel is
addressed as a nation after the establishment of the church (I Corinthians
10:32) shows that the Gentiles do not supplant Israel (national) in God's
covenant program. (2) Natural Israel and the church are contrasted in the
New Testament (Romans 11:1-25; I Corinthians 10:32). In Romans 11 it is
shown that God has taken the nation Israel out of the place of blessing
temporarily, but will restore them to that place of blessing when His
program with the church is terminated. This consideration shows that the
church does not supplant Israel in God's covenant program. (3) Jewish
Christians, who would be a part of spiritual Israel, and Gentile Christians
are contrasted in the New Testament (Romans 9:6, where Paul contrasts these
promises which belong to Israel according to the flesh and those which
belong to Israel who enter into them by faith: Galatians 6:15:16, where Paul
specifically mentions believing Jews in the benediction pronounced on the
whole body of Christ). The point seems to be well established, then, that
the church today is not Israel in whom these promises are fulfilled. It is
strange that the amillennialist, who argues that the covenants need not be
fulfilled because they were conditional and the conditions were not met by
Israel, and who argues further that they will not be fulfilled because they
have been historically fulfilled in the Solomonic kingdom, now argues that
they are being fulfilled by the church. If they were conditional or already
fulfilled why not ignore the covenant promises entirely? The only answer is
that the covenants form such a foundation for the whole expectation of the
Word of God that they can not be ignored.

>De 14:2  For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the
>LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above
>all the nations that are upon the earth.

 JC> The church IS that peculiar people...We are the only Isreal that
 JC> God is concerned about.

     See above discussion.

>Isaiah 26:21 ...the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the
>inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity...

 JC> Yes He does...and brings the dead in Christ with him...and the we
 JC> which are alive and remain will be caught up to meet Him in the
 JC> air

     At what point or time in relation to the beginning of the seven year
period of Jacob's Trouble (aka the Tribulatino), and to each other, do these
tow events occur? 

>Revelation 6:16-17 And said t the mountains and rocks, Fall on us,
>and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and
>from the WRATH OF THE LAMB: for the great day of HIS WRATH is come;
>and who shall stand?

 JC> YES AMEN...that DAY has come....The tribulation time is one thing
 JC> but then cometh the Great and Notable DAY of the Lord...the day
 JC> of the FIERCENESS of His Wrath.

     Not only is it presently occurring, but it has been continually
occurring for some time in the past and will continue to occur for some time
into the future according to the Greek.

 JC> that tribulation that you quote scriptures for in your post is
 JC> that last and terrible day...when He pulls his people out of here
 JC> and they ride with him as he pours his wrath out without
 JC> mixture...the FIERCENESS of His Wrath....

     No, the entire 7 year period is the time of God's wrath. The events of
Revelation from the beginning of Jacob's Trouble to the Second Advent of
Christ will occur within a period of 7 years.

Walter Copes
The joy of the Lord is my strength
(wcopes@communique.net)
Walter L Copes