666 - Bro. Tim 42 ;-)

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Timothy Litteral wrote:
> 
> Bro. Chris:
> > We are listening but when your wrong well..... we just
> can't help but telling you so :-)
> 
> Me:
> Can't "help" or can't "wait?" ;-)
> 
Hey Bro I even waited a few days to prove you wrong on your assumption
below...

> In those days a man was "numbered" by his name.  my name is
> Tim for short which would make MY "number"
> 20, 9, 13 (not 42) if we use the "American" numbering
> system of A=1, B=2.  It is THE SAME (this is NOT in the
> Bible, OK)  as John saying here is wisdom the number of the
> man is 10, 5, 19, 21, 19.  This is the WORD jesus which is
> what you get when you pronounce the three numbers/letters
> that John wrote.  The AMAZING thing is that the word jesus
> did not even EXIST in John's day.
> 
You could not be further from the truth and here is why,

Rev. 13:18  Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding *count* the
number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is
Six hundred threescore and six. 

The KJV translates the word psephizo (psay-fid'-zo) *count*, Strongs
number 5586; to use pebbles in enumeration, i.e. (generally) to
compute:  The NIV: calculate, LB: add, NKJV count.

Dr. Robert Gentry writes in his great work "Before Jeruselem Fell" 
concerning this germatria.....

	In order to gain a proper conception of this verse, a little historic
and 		cultural background will be necessary...Cryptograms involved the
adding up of 		the numerical values of the letters and a word,
particularly a proper name.  		(Irenaus mentions this phenomenon in his
"Against Heresies" 5:30:1)  In Greek 		these riddles were called (Gentry
gives the greek spelling) numeric equality 		....this could be seen in
that any particular arithmetical value could fit a 		number of words or
names.

	Zahn provides us an example of a cryptogram discovered in excavation
from 		Pompeii.... the Greek inscription written was (again Gentry gives
the Greek 		spelling) I love her whose number is 545....the passing
stranger does not know 		in the very least who the beloved is...for he
does not know how many letters 		there are in the name that give the
total 545 when added numerically.

	......An additional example, also employing Nero's name can be found in
the 		Sibyline Oracles:

	One who has fifty as an initial will be commander...
	
	And again in the Christian Sibyline Oracles:

	I will state explicitly the entire number for you,
	For eight units, and equal number of tens in addition to these, and
eight 		hundreds will reveal his name.....the translator notes Iesous
[Jesus] has a 		numercal equivalence of 888.

We could go on but this should be sufficient.  Your assumption is rather
a shirt-tail theory.  I qoute, "as John saying here is wisdom the number
of the man is 10, 5, 19, 21, 19".  Sorry guy that will just not stand up
to scutiny.  I believe Dr. Gentry has not only the credentials but the
proof that 666 is the sum of this mans name of Rev. 13:18.

Have you any information like that of Zahn who excavated Pompeii that
would give credence to your theory?  I think not.

> Bro. Chris:
> We are too far removed from this practice to appreciate it
> > like they did.
> 
> Bro. Littleral:
> Why?  We have Greek text books.  It is when we try to make
> these prophecies something they are not that we get into
> trouble.
> 
You assumption and Gentry's proof says it all, but you are right, you
can get into all kinds of trouble when you try to make these prophecies
into something they are not, and they are prophecies writen by John in
the first century to his comtemporaries saying to them "things that must
shortly come to pass", "the time is at hand", Jesus said to his
contemporaries, all these things will come to pass before this
generation passes away.

> Bro. Chris:
>  John begins and ends the book with the time is at hand!
> 
> Me:
> Yep!  That it is.  Does John mean JUDGMENT or EXECUTION of
> sentence?  Which is at hand even as we speak?
> 
No not just judgement and not just execution of that judgement, but the
real historic demise of Jeruselem, (read your history books) the
destruction of the Temple (Matt 24, Mk 13 Lk 21) in which Rome would
play a part (Josephus).

> You have said I am wrong I await proof.  Let's not play
> this "you misquoted the Bible" game.  What I said was a
> GENERAL statement.  I then went on to ground it in FACT.
> 
Okay, fair enough.  You affirm something that is not a FACT, ie a mans
name was know by *MANY* numbers not the germatria of *A* number.  I have
provided you with the FACTS, if you do not want to accept the solid
evidence of Zahn and Gentry go right ahead! But the plain FACT is that
you are wrong.  

I hope that I have litterally provoked you to provide proof as you have
me! :-)

CCF