Trubulation

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From: "Timothy Litteral" <brotim@gte.net>
To: <higher-fire@prairienet.org>
Subject: Re: The Seed of Abraham

 TL> Galatians 3:16
 TL> Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not,
 TL> And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which
 TL> is Christ. 

     Glatians 3:16 is used to indicate that ALL the promises to Abraham
concerning his seed is singular. The clear meaning as used by Paul is that
the term seed as used here is singular. All nations of the earth are blessed
in Him (singular seed). Yet God promised Abraham that his seed (certainly
not singular as used here) would number as the grains of the sand or as the
stars in the sky. There is no way that this can be a reference to singular
seed for there is only one Jesus Christ not untold billions of Him.

     The things promised by God are the following: 1. That Abraham's name
shall be great. 2. That a great nation (seed as plural for a nation is made
up of many people) should come from him. 3. He should be a blessing so great
that in him shall all families of the earth be blessed (And in Jesus [seed
as singular] is is so). 4. To him personally ("to thee") and to his seed
should be given Palestine forever to inherit. 5. the multitude of his seed
[plural not singular] should be as the dust of the earth. 6. that whoever
blessed him should be blessed, and whosoever cursed him should be cursed. 7.
He should be the father of many nations. 8. Kings should proceed form him.
9. the covenant shall be perpetual, "an everlasting covenant." 10. the land
of Canaan shall be "an everlasting covenant." 11. God will be a God to him
and to his seed. 12. His seed shall possess the gate of his enemies. 13. In
his seed (singular) shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.

     When these particulars are analyzed it will be seen that certain
INDIVIDUAL promises were given to Abraham, certain NATIONAL promises
respecting the nation Israel, of which he was the father, were given to him,
and certain UNIVERSAL blessings that encompassed all nations were given to him.

 WC> For all the LAND which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to
 WC> thy SEED for ever. And I will make thy SEED as the dust of the
 WC> earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, [then]
 WC> shall thy SEED also be numbered (Genesis 13:15-16).

 TL> Romans 12:5

     There are at least twenty-four contrasts between Israel and the church
which show that these two groups can not be united into one, but that they
must be distinguished as two separate entities with whom God is dealing.
These contrasts may be outlined as follows: 

1) The extent of Biblical revelation: Israel--nearly four-fifths of the
bible: Church--about one fifth. 

2) The Divine purpose: Israel--the earthly promises in the covenants:
Church--the heavenly promises in the gospel. 

3) The seed of Abraham: Israel--the physical seed, of whom some became a
spiritual seed: Church--a spiritual seed. 

4) Birth: Israel--physical birth that produced a relationship;
Church--spiritual birth that brings relationship. 

5) Headship: Israel--Abraham; Church--Christ. 

6) covenants: Israel--Abrahamic and all the following covenants;
Church--indirectly related to he Abrahamic and new covenants; 

7) Nationality: Israel--one nation; Church--from all nations. 

8) Divine dealings: Israel--national and individual; church--individual only. 

9) Dispensations: Israel--seen in all ages from Abraham; church--seen only
in this present age. 

10) Ministry: Israel--no missionary activity and no gospel to preach;
Church--a commission to fulfill. 

11) The death of Christ: Israel--guilty nationally, to be saved by it;
Church--perfectly saved by it now. 

12) The Father: Israel--by a peculiar relationship God was Father to the
nation; Church--we are related individually to God as Father. 

13) Christ: Israel--Messiah, Immanuel, King; Church--saviour, Lord,
Bridegroom, Head. 

14) The Holy Spirit: Israel--came upon some temporarily; church--indwells all. 

15) Governing principle: Israel--Mosaic law system; Church--grace system. 

16) divine enablement: Israel--none; Church--the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. 

17) Two farewell discourses: Israel--Olivet discourse; Church--upper room
discourse. 

18) The promise of Christ's return: Israel--in power and glory for judgment;
Church--to receive us to Himself. 

19) Position: Israel--a servant: Church--members of the family. 

20) Christ's earthly reign: Israel--subjects; Church-- co-reigners. 

21) Priesthood: Israel--had a priesthood; Church--is a priesthood. 

22) Marriage: Israel--unfaithful wife: Church--bride. 

23) Judgments: Israel--must face judgment; Church--delivered from all
judgments. 

24) Positions in eternity: Israel--spirits of just men made perfect in the
new earth; Church--church of the firstborn in the new heavens.

 TL> Amen!  What I am driving at here is that there are promises to
 TL> Jesus/Church, Abraham's Seed, singular (we being many are still
 TL> one in Christ) and those to the children of Abraham that "are as
 TL> the sand of the sea" which are his (Abraham's) EARTHLY  or natu-
 TL> ral children/seed.

     Exactly!! I rather suspect that it is the terms that we are using that
causes the misunderstanding here. I use the term Israel to be the NATURAL
descendants of Abraham or Jews as they are known today. It is this group
(national Israel) which has been temporarily displaced by the chruch. God's
rejection of Israel is only temporary as seen from Romans 11:11-36. Those
unconditional promises which God made Abraham concerning his descendants God
will keep. One of those promises to the natural seed (many) is the promise
of the land.

 WC> The plain teaching of Scripture that the seed of Abraham, of ne-
 WC> cessity, is the term applied to the physical descendants of
 WC> Abraham. 

 TL> Yep.  These are the "dust" children (sand children above).

     No, you can not have it both ways. Either the church is one or many,
but not both. The the chruch cannot be as the sands of the sea or the stars
of the sky because there is only on church not many.

 WC> Those who ultimately possess the land in the future millennium
 WC> will also be of spiritual Israel. 

 TL> Jesus will posses the land and rule it with his "betrothed"
 TL> bride.

     I was rather under the impression that instead of me inheriting a patch
of dirt (land) I would instead have a mansion and walk on streets of gold.
Nowhere in the Old Testament is Israel promised to walk on streets of gold.
The redeemed are given this promise in Revelation.

 TL> Abraham is in this number and so is Isaac when Jesus lead
 TL> captivity captive), therefore fufilling the promise physically.

     If they are physical then they have already received their immortal
physical bodies but they have not. Nor will they until the dead in Christ
are caught up to be with Him. Therefore they cannot be physically fulfilling
such a promise.

 TL> These/we are the children of heaven numbered like the stars and
 TL> the descendants of natural Israel are the children numbered as
 TL> the dust.

     I disagree. The promise was to Abraham and understood by Abraham to be
his natural descendants. God did not deceive Abraham in this point. Nor did
Abraham believe a lie of his own choosing.

 TL> Abraham's natural and Spiritual Seed, Jesus will "posses" the
 TL> land and Abraham's natural children will "inhabit" the land.
 TL This unifies the division caused when Ishmael was "ousted."

    Does this mean that we have believed a lie and that we really will not
be living in a heavenly mansion and walking on streets of gold?

 WC> Because we are the seed of Abraham spiritually by the new birth,
 WC> it does not mean we are the physical seed of the patriarch.

 TL> Nope.  When I am in Christ, I, like Jesus, become the physical as
 TL> well as the Spiritual Seed of Abraham. 

     No, you are not the physical descendant of Abraham. You are adopted
into the family of God and thus cry Abba. While Jesus was certainly a
physical descendant of Abraham and we are in Him we nevertheless remain
adopted even though having all the privaleges of a son.

 TL> When has Jesus ever ruled in Jerusalem? This means the real 
 TL> place BTW, not the New Jerusalem either.

 WC> I certainly agree here. The church is not made earthly promises.
 WC> The promises to the chruch are spiritual and heavenly. For in-
 WC> stance, all one need do to prove that the church is heir to all
 WC> the promises of Israel need only go to Iraq and take over all the
 WC> land west of the Euphrates river. 

 TL> Well.... ;~)

     My reaction also. If the church is to inherit the land and it is a
certain promise of God then the chruch need only assert its claim and move
into souther Iraq and posses the land as God promised. Me, I'd rather have a
mansion and walk on streets of gold that walk around in the desert or any
place else on earth.

 WC> Why is the church being tried? What purpose is served by this
 WC> test. Has not the church been continually tested from the time it
 WC> cam into being on the Day of Pentecost? 

 TL> Sure has.  This is THE Great Tribulation, testing on a scale like
 TL> none other.  Grace like no other time in History!  It's at the
 TL> door step friends!

     And what purpose is served by this "Great Tribulation?" Some (in other
discussions) have told me it is to purify the chruch. However, my bible
tells me that those who are in Christ are sanctified and justified and are
already purified.

 TL> Nothing NEW.  The scale will bogle the mind though.

     To what purpose? What function is served by this tribulation?

 TL> This is harder than I though.  Check this out:  The Great Tribu-
 TL> lation=Indefinate period of trail of the church just before the:
 TL> RAPTURE=ALL believers taken to be with Jesus in the AIR.

You seem to be defining the Great Tribulation as the church age or the time
from the birth of the church to the rapture. I believe that this is
incorrect. The Great Tribulation is that period of time of seven years also
known as the time of Jacob's Trouble.

 TL> God marks the 144,000 to be IMMUNE to God's: Wrath=DESTRUCTION of
 TL> ALL that would not believe the Truth.

Can these 144,000 be any Gentile believer or must they be physical
descendants of Abraham. If the former why the specific mention of the twelve
tribes. Otherwise it would be just 144,000.

 TL> Jesus (Abraham's Seed with the "Children like unto the stars"/Old 
 TL> testament saints and Church) Rules the Land as His inheretance
 TL> which INCLUDES "the children Like unto the sand of the sea" which
 TL> are ALSO Abraham's seed. 

     Now for the killer question. Who is being ruled? If I am required to be
on the earth ruling what about my manson and streets of gold?

 TL> The word tribulation is NEVER applied to the 7 years (last seen
 TL> in chapter 8) but the word wrath appears over and over.....

     Scripture abounds in promises that Israel will be brought into the time
of purging to prepare them as a nation for the millennium to follow the
advent of Messiah. However, since national Israel is to be distinguished
from the church in the economy of God, those scripture which promise
tribulation to national Israel can not be made to teach that the church is
to experience the tribulation period. National Israel and the church are two
distinct entities in the plan of God and must be so regarded.

     Further, it must be noticed that the term TRIBULATION is used in
several different ways in Scripture. It is used in a non-technical,
non-eschatological sense in reference to any time of suffering or testing
into which one goes. It is so used in Matthew 13:21; Mark 4:17; John 16:33;
Romans 5:3; 12:12; II Corinthians 1:4; II Thessalonians 1:4; Revelation 1:9;
It is used in its technical or eschatological sense in reference to the
whole period of seven years of tribulation, as in Revelation 2:22 or Matthew
24:29. It is also used in reference to the last half of the this seven year
period, as in Matthew 24:21. When the word TRIBULATION is used in reference
to the church, as in John 16:33, it is used in a non-technical sense, in
which the church is promised an age-long opposition from the god of this
age, but it is not teaching that the church will be brought into the period
technically known as the tribulation. Otherwise one would have to teach that
the tribulation has already existed for over nineteen hundred years.

Walter Copes
The joy of the Lord is my strength
(wcopes@communique.net)
Walter L Copes