Tribulaltion Salvation

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From: Joe Chancellor <browser@wt.net>
To: higher-fire@prairienet.org
Subject: Re: National Israel

 JC> Thank you for you clear and civil response...such responses are
 JC> sometimes hard to come by on higher fire...:)

     Simply because we may happen to disagree on a particular subject does
not require us to be disagreeable. I have a large number of files already in
my PC. I frequently post sections from them with little change. One reason
is that they were written with no particular individual in mind an as such
it tends to remove personality from the discussion. It is one way I attempt
to keep things from getting personal. Unfortunately I do not always succeed.
I have a tendency to misunderstand the point and go off on a tangent.

 JC> Due to your post I do feel that I do more fully understand your
 JC> stance on National Isreal at least chronologically.

     I rather suspect that our position on eschatological subjects is a lot
closer than appears at first glance.

 JC> ..and I will possibly post some observations on that as I read
 JC> the scripture that you have suggested....

     While I have strong views on the end times I hope they are no set in
concrete. I am still learning. The fact that others disagree with my
position does not make them wrong and me right. I do, however, believe that
I should make as strong a case as possible for my own views. It they are
wrong then hopefully scriptural references, interpretation, and logic will
change them.

 JC> One more question still remains though....I would still like to
 JC> know the method in which these jews that WILL be brought to right
 JC> relationship with God will be brought to that right relationship

     I am not aware of any method of salvation for future generations or
times than the one now in place. I do not preclude changes however. There
are some who believe (from research efforts on the subject) that repentance,
baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of sins and the infilling of the
Holy Spirit will not be required. For instance, some believe that the
shedding of one's own blood during the period known as the Tribulation will
be all that is necessary. Others talk about the good deeds worked toward the
144,000. However, the Bible does not speak of works ever earning salvation.

     I suspect that there is an element of truth in these deed which we
MIGHT have overlooked. The Restrainer (which I believe the ministry of the
Holy Spirit as we know it in this age) will be ended. I am not saying here
that the Spirit ceases to minister. In the Holy Ghost the saint has power
over demonic spirits. As such he can bind them and in prayer groups can
cause havoc in their plans. If and when the time comes that this is no
longer the case (the Restrainer ceases to restrain) then there has obviously
been a change in our situation which includes relationship.

     I personally believer that there will be upwards of 5 to 10 percent of
the earth's population which will go into the Millennial Kingdom from this
present age. This is NOT eternal salvation as we conceive of it.

     Isaiah 65:20 (KJV)  There shall be no more thence an infant of
     days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child
     shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred
     years old shall be accursed.

 JC> ...and if that method is by obeying the gospel that the apostles
 JC> preached and obeying that gospel alone then what part in all this
 JC> do you feel that the move toward sacrificing the red heifers have
 JC> and how do you feel about apostolics being part of bringing the
 JC> sacrificial system back.

     I do not believe that these sacrifices have any bearing upon salvation.
I rather view them from a different aspect. The Jews alive at that time (and
even many now) will be adhering to the Law of Moses and attempting to for
their relationship with God upon that basis. Unfortunately for them that
covenant has been superseded by a much superior covenant. For instance, the
Jews continued blood sacrifice for some 40 years after the death and
resurrection of Jesus. They continued the prescribed temple rituals as they
had before Christ. Yet the Church existed side by side with this system
until it was destroyed in 70 A.D.

     The "red heifer" thing will not save anyone. It is but another
indication of how close we are to the end. At no time do I believe that God
will turn back to the superseded covenant (Law of Moses) in His dealings
with national Israel.

     The severe persecution (tribulation) of the seven years will be the
physical method of pressure which God will use to bring many into right
relationship with Him. However, this relationship will remain based upon
repentance, baptism and the Holy Spirit. I suspect that you have personally
seen people, perhaps even have some in your own congregation, who have had
to go through some trial (tribulation) before they were brought to
repentance and redemption. It is most unfortunate that the severity of the
tribulation must be several orders of magnitude greater than anything know
in previous ages before some will turn to God. But then for some their hears
are hard indeed.

     While I may not have adequately answered your questions I hope it has
shed some light on the subject.

Walter Copes
The joy of the Lord is my strength
(wcopes@communique.net)
Walter L Copes