reaching sinners

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In a message dated 97-05-20 03:46:46 EDT, you write:

<<  However, you have to realize that Homosexuals/Lesbians don't see it
 quite the same way as we do. They BELIEVE that God 
 created them that way, and that they have no choice in the
 matter. ... they feel that their desires & affections are
 something that they were born with.>>

Having known homosexuals who were baptized in Jesus' name , filled with the
Holy Ghost, and delivered from this sinful lifestyle, and are now living in
monogamous heterosexual marriage relationships, (some nearly 20 years), I
think you might be surprised how many do NOT believe this is true. People
with this testimony, who are truthful about it, will often say that in their
"heart of hearts", they always knew that there was something wrong, and that
homosexuality was not natural. If you think we are rough on each other on
H-F, you should hear them talk about the attacks they would receive from the
gay & lesbian community if they questioned their beliefs!
 
<<Most liars and adulterers KNOW that what they are doing
 is wrong, and they KNOW that they have a choice.>>

Not always. It is surprising to me that the moral condition is this world
(and even in some churches) has deteriorated to the point that people are not
bothered by unmarried couples living together, or having a "girlfriend on the
side".

As to the liars (thieves, alcoholics, etc..), they can also find someone to
tell them that they have a *disease* that causes them to lie (steal, drink,
etc.), and that they are *not responsible* for their actions. Many of these
folks will not admit that what they are doing is wrong. Sitting in a room
with a psychologist who was counselling a young man who had committed petty
theft, I was shocked to hear the first words out of the "Dr.'s" mouth, "It's
not your fault"!!!! How could this teenager feel any guilt or have remorse
after being told such a thing.
 

<<Many pastors make BIG mistakes in dealing with
 this topic, because while sin is sin, they don't approach it from
 the victims standpoint...>>

I totally agree that whoever is dealing with this situation must first
understand the sinner's (I have a hard time with the word "victim")
standpoint. Don't expect him to feel that his behavior is wrong because *we*
know it is wrong, and also, don't assume that he believes that it is right,
just because someone else has told him so.
In some cases, making this assumption incorrectly can actually inadvetently
add to its validity; i.e. "there must be something to it, or the pastor
(minister, saint, etc) wouldn't have brought it up" (courtesy of our
spiritual enemy).
 
<< When you deal with it, keep in mind that they think God did
 this to them, and it's His fault they are like this. >>

In his Christian Counsellor's Manual, Dr. Jay Adams states (very simply) the
"abc's" of dealing with sin and guilt.
**************************************************************************
The counselee *must*

I. A - Acknowledge his guilt
     A. In Biblical terms: sin against God; not sickness/alienation, etc.
     B. That sin is first against God: then against others (not merely
horizontal)

II. B - Blame no one but themselves
      A. Not his parents
      B. Not his spouse
      C. Not his church
      D. Not society
      E. Not God

C - Confess his sin
      A. To God, seeking forgiveness (I John 1:7-10)
      B. To any others he may have offended.
******************************************************************************
********
Dr. Adams has written some fine works on counselling that expose how secular
counselling attempts to relieve the sinner of his guilt, by either telling
him that what he is doing is all right, or that he is a "victim", and
therefore not responsible for his actions, over which he has no control. Many
of these so-called "victims" are looking for, and would welcome, someone who
would take a stand and tell them that their behavior is wrong, and that they
can change, by the grace of God. As you pointed out, the same approach will
not work with everyone.


Gal 6:1
1	Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are *spiritual*,
restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou
also be tempted.
(KJV)

It takes a spiritual person, with a meek spirit, to expose sin as sin,
without being so offensive that we drive the sinner away. No compromise, only
"speaking the truth in love".


Dr. Adam's books are available through the Pentecostal Publishing House, or
can be found at  <A HREF="http://www.christianbook.com/">CBD home page</A>.

Finally, I am not in disagreement what was said earlier, but I feel that our
results in leading someone to the Lord (that's what its really all about
anyway, ...right?) ,regardless of his sin, will be increased if we deal with
each person as a unique situation, rather than going into the situation with
pre-conceived ideas (one way or the other).

Pastor Joe