'The Other Pentecostals' and Bro. Starcher

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Matthew Shaw wrote:

It seems
> that you amended this definition  (of moderate Apostolics) driving a wedge between
> 'conservatives' and 'moderates' that sent me hurling back to the
> conservative corner from whence I came.

My goal in writing Moderate Apostolics was not to drive a wedge between
Apostolics but to expose several current trends in Apostolic self
understanding.  If you check out one of my follow-up posts to Moderate
Apostolics I acknowledge that these distinctions are dynamic, constantly
changing. My hope and prayer is that Apostolics will become self
critical examining  the reasons for their beliefs, their biblical basis,
and their relationship to the beliefs of other Christians. 

> I simply do not believe that these polemics of which you speak exist
> within this movement.  It's a sort of 'either-you-are-or-you-aren't'
> configuration, I know.  The wonderful thing about Pentecost is that
> there is room for diverse voices with various approaches.  We do not
> have to select a political term like 'conservative' or 'moderate' to
> align ourselves with our brothers and sisters.  We can all exist
> together, working together for the cause of Christ and the expansion
> of His Kingdom and Gospel.

The recent debates on higher-fire illustrate that a diversity of
understanding  of the Apostolic faith does exist and that this faith is
presented and defended in different ways.  It is my prayer that we can
all be united as Apostolics regardless of whether we are conservative,
liberal, or moderate.  However, schisms in the Apostolic movement
demonstrate that many are more willing to separate than tolerate
diversity.  I, like you, want all Apostolics to work together for the
Kingdom of God.


> While I'm not lobbying for an iron-curtain isolationism, we cannot
> fall into the ecumenical melting-pot of greater Christendom.  If we do, we
> will not long retain our distinctive and Apostolic doctrines our
> lifestyles.  That said, I do believe that we don't have to deconstruct
> the faith of others to lead them into the Truth.  We can, however,
> build upon existing faith Apostolic principles.


Once again I agree with you Brother Matthew. I have no desire to lose my
Apostolic identity or to participate in the liberal ecumenical movement
of which you speak.  From my perspective, dialogue with other Christians
does not mean compromise or assimilation, it means seeking understanding
and treating others with courtesy and respect that there might be
ongoing communication.  As I said in my post, I believe that Apostolic
Pentecostalism better articulates the reality of the Pentecostal
experience and faith.  But Apostolics need to establish and maintain a
dialogue with other Christians that their faith might be understood.

I have no desire to "deconstruct" the Apostolic faith.  I do desire to
give the Apostolic faith a new expression.  To accomplish this requires
that I be self critical.  It was not easy for me to acknowledge that my
faith was influenced by Enlightenment rationalism, Scottish Common Sense
Philosophy, and clothed in the garments of Fundamentalism and
Evangelicalism.  I was afraid that leaving this philosophy, these
theologies, and intellectualism behind would destroy my faith.  I was
wrong.  In fact their forsaking has allowed me to read the Bible from
the perspective of the Apostolic experience of Jesus, reaffirm the
authority of Holy Scripture over church doctrines, and, I believe,
articulate the Apostolic faith in a better way.  I do not desire to lead
Apostolics into a new theological system but to refocus their attention
on the importance of correlating their theology with their Pentecostal
experience of Jesus and allowing the Holy Spirit to speak forth more
truth from the Word of God.

> What you must realise, Bro. Starcher, is that we exist as one body not
> a
> factioned Parliament.  I thank God for those who are making new
> strides
> and ventures into areas of communicating this message (with the
> retained
> understanding that this is THE message); and I also thank God for
> those
> who exist closer to the core of our traditional Pentecostal roots who
> anchor us to the fundamentals of our doctrine.  We MUST be a thriving,
> organic Church, but we must also retain the vital signs of our
> Apostolic
> faith.

My heart yearns for Apostolic unity Brother Matthew. But I do see a
"factioned Parliament". How else can we explain the recent schisms in
the
Apostolic movement?  How else can we explain the refusal of some
Apostolic organizations to join the Apostolic World Christian
Fellowship?  Divisions are very real and very deep in the Apostolic
movement.  And, in my opinion, they are caused by the theology and
philosophy to which Apostolic Pentecostalism has been wed.  There are
Fundamental doctrines which distinguish Apostolics from other
Christians.  The fullness of God in Jesus Christ, water baptism in Jesus
Name, and the baptism in the Holy Spirit.  To remain faithful to these
doctrines does not require that I express them in an Fundamentalist or
Evangelical way.  To remain faithful to these doctrines requires that I
practice them, proclaim them, demonstrate their biblical basis, and
affirm their Christian authenticity by incorporating them into the
essence of my understanding of the Christian faith.  This is what I am
striving to do in my own feeble human way.

You speak of the "core of our traditional Pentecostal roots" and, by
inference, equate the core with doctrines.  I sincerely believe that the
core of the Pentecostal faith can be found in Pentecostal worship.  It
is in the event of worship that Pentecostals experience Jesus Christ,
receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues, identify
Jesus as Lord and God, baptize new converts in Jesus name, and are
inspired to be disciples of Christ.  The Apostolic faith expressed in
worship is the faith I desire to present. A Pentecostal theology must
not only be prescriptive, based upon the teachings of Holy Scripture,
but descriptive, describing the continuing activity of Jesus Christ in
the Apostolic community through the Holy Spirit.  In so doing we will
return to our true Pentecostal roots, possessing an openness to embrace
new understandings of the Word of God which eclipse traditional
understandings because of the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

One more thought.  Like all religious movements, Pentecostalism has
entered into a period of scholasticism.   Scholastics are scholars who
feel that they can encompass the reality of their faith and protect and
preserve it by a precise doctrinal expression.  Pentecostalism revolted
against the arid orthodoxy of Protestant Scholasticism which had
forgotten the dynamic spiritual experience and life of the Protestant
reformers.  But, sadly, it seems that a lot of Pentecostal scholars are
content to develop a rationalistic systematic theology, (Evangelicalism
in drag), and forget the true spirituality of their faith.  Pentecostal
theology must reflect Pentecostal spirituality.  It must listen to the
voice of the common people in the pew who are just as inspired of the
Holy Spirit as you and I.  Pentecostal theology must listen to their
voices and express the reality of their faith.  Their faith, a living
faith open to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the core of the
Pentecostal faith.



> As for the term 'Oneness', I don't really understand your objection to
> it.  Yes, I suppose it's theological and perhaps a bit philosophical,
> but it is indicative of our position and stance.  

Have you read my short post entitled "Oneness"?  Its available in the
higher-fire archives. This post provides a biblical explanation for the
the reason I prefer not to use the term "Oneness".  I think if you read
this post you will find it consistent with the Apostolic Pentecostal
understanding of God.  I hope to provide a more thorough exposition of
the Apostolic understanding of Jesus soon.  Answering questions has kept
me busy! Let me make a few comments.  I believe that the Apostolic
Pentecostal doctrine of God is distinguished from Pentecostal
Trinitarianism by an emphasis on Revelation. This means that the
Apostolic doctrine of God does not arise from the abstract intellectual
reflections of Apostolics pondering who God is in His innermost being,
but from the historical revelation and experience of God in the
Apostolic community.  Apostolics come to know God through revelation. 
To revive a phrase from our  Pentecostal heritage, we receive the
revelation of thename! In the Bible, the name reveals the person!  This
revelation and
experience are interpreted and defined by Holy Scripture. Jesus is the
Name of God!  Jesus is the One true God!  The Apostolic Pentecostal
faith is not an abstract philosophical monotheism, but a revealtional
monotheism.  Jesus is revealed as the one true God through His self
disclosure in the Apostolic community.

 
> In short, it simply seems to me that you wish to re-arrange the
> definitions and parameters that we have so long lived with.  I'm not
> saying that we cannot be progressive and dynamic, but we will not do
> our best work by splintering ourselves along lines that probably don't
> exist and trying to rework the basic terminology of our Apostolic Faith.

I readily acknowledge that I am giving the Apostolic faith a new
expression. But if you examine my writings I think you will find that it
is indeed the Apostolic faith of our fore fathers.  In fact, in many
ways I am much closer to the original Apostolic faith than many of my
critics.  I am willing to criticize traditional doctrines and creeds.  I
am willing to allow the Holy Spirit to guide me into new Scriptural
truths.  I am willing to tolerate Apostolic diversity.  I am willing to
emancipate myself from foreign theologies and philosophies which
restrict the expression of the Apostolic faith.  I even advocate the
early Apostolic concept of revelation!  These tenets were the heart and
soul of the Apostolic movement.  They are at the heart and soul of my
faith.

I do not desire to splinter the Apostolic movement.  I desire for the
Apostolic movement to be healed.  But healing can be a difficult
process. It involves humility, acknowledging when you have been wrong. 
It involves courage, courage to allow the Holy Spirit to reveal new
truths and transform our understanding of the Apostolic faith. It
involves boldness, boldness to proclaim the message which God has laid
on your heart while knowing that it will meet with fierce opposition.
And it involves love, love for those Apostolics who agree with you, and
those Apostolics who don't.  This is the love I possess in my heart, the
love which motivates me and sustains me.  This is the love I share with
you Brother Matthew!  Let us pray that through positive dialogues such
as those on higher-fire the faith we love and movement we cherish will
be renewed.

God Bless!

Steve