Secular ethics

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Our good friend, the infamous and controversial Michael J. Murphy III,
has been engaging in plenty of heated discussion with the secular
humanist crowd lately.  He's been scoffing them for their idea that
there can be a secular morality (and for those that know him, you know
he's *really* good at scoffing).  He's been making fun of Jehovah
Witnesses and Mormons while he's at it.

Anyway, he's copied me on some of the mail he's received.  Here's a
part of a response I wrote up.  I believe it's going to some Science
Fiction discussion list.  (I'm not on the list.  Murphy is, but many of
you know that Murph is a one-man alt.syntax.tactical).

Anyway, Mister Atheist basically wrote that religion is not necessary
for moral behavior, that the rewards of morality are "self-evident"
and a bunch of nonsensical points to back his assertions up.


Richard
--

Cavedweller wrote:

> Well, anybody can learn the value of keeping a promise, not telling
> lies, and being fair and reasonable. This may be moreso required of
> those professing religion,

_ad hominem_

> but anybody from any world view can accept
> these fundamental principles.

Why are these fundamental principles?  Who says these are fundamental,
universal principles that are just innately "good"?

> The rewards of morality are self-evident.

Please list these "self-evident" rewards and why these rewards outweigh
apparent benefits of what we might consider "immoral" behavior.

For example: you list "not telling lies" as moral behavior.  If telling
the truth has "self-evident" rewards, as you claim, why do judges and
juries have to determine who is telling the truth and who is lying in
a criminal or civil case?

> In REALITY, so alien to some religious people, the people are held
> ACCOUNTABLE to abide by such MORAL PRINCIPLES that anybody can learn.

But again, what if there is no accountability?  For example, in American
society, promises are broken every day.  Religious people often (not always)
consider the marriage vows of "till death do us part" to be important.
You seem to agree that keeping promises is a moral behavior with "self-
evident" rewards.

Yet every day the promise of the marriage vow is broken through divorce
or cheating.  There is little or no societal accountability.  There is
no perceived "self-evident" reward.

> It's a purely human effort.

And in many instances it obviously doesn't work, per my examples of
courts and marriage.

[stuff about moral homosexuals, Bill Bennett and his _Book of Virtues_,
 etc deleted]

> Paul would probably start by saying, "I
> perceive you are religious in all things, and you ignorantly
> worship..."

The Greeks spent a tremendous amount of time and effort trying to
determine where concepts of right and wrong come from.  They were
indeed a very religious people.

Have you ever read about Plato's cave?  You know, the guys who are
bound in a dark cavern, everything they see is just shadows rather than
the real world.  One of the guys gets free and goes outside, where he
encounters the real world of colors and sunshine and wind and smells
and touch.  He returns to the cave and tries to explain this new world
to his brethren, but they merely scoff at his outlandish ideas, his
"bizarre doctrines."  They're happy with the shadows and don't need any
new mystical ideas.

>From the viewpoint of the Christian, the Christian is the one who has
been freed from that cave and has been absolutely astounded by the
brilliance of the outside, real world:  the colors, the sensations, and
the blowing breeze.  When the Christian attempts to explain this new
world to his cave-dwelling friends, he is scoffed at and ridiculed.
They Just Don't Get It because it's a whole different way of looking at
things.  The cavedwellers are happy with the shadows and don't need
any new mystical ideas.

Richard
--
Richard F. Masoner                         Central Data Corporation
richardm@cd.com                            Champaign, IL 61821  USA
+1 217 359 8010                            http://www.cd.com/