debate with an AOG member (ROTFL)

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Bro. Sterrett:

>Fellow H-Fer members:
>
>This Brother on here  who has been watching the discussion on the
>Assembliesof God list in my mind was quick to judge me.  I have many
> people who can back me up as not being a guy with the wrong kind of attitude.
>When I joined the A/G list, I did not do it to argue with them.  The first
>thread I replied to was one about their beliefs and their faith statement.
>I asked if I could see what they were, and stated that I knew they were not
>like mine so I wanted to view them.  I was replied to by someone on there
>that asked me why I said 'you people.'  (I am not a member of the A/G so
>I mentioned them as 'you people'.  Obviously he took offense to that.
>Second I replied to a thread about homosexuality.  They for some reason
>see no wrong in it. I said I felt it was ok to witness to the homosexual,
>but beyond that, we should not fellowship with them.  I used the verse that
>asks,
>"What has light with dark?"  They jumped on that and me for being "unkind"
>to the homosexual.  Then, I replied to a thread that was also already started
>about oneness and the trinity.  At first, I asked simple questions regarding
>the trinity.  They were quick to attack me saying I need to use Biblical
>reference,

It is important to take a bit of time to find out what is going on when you
go into a new place. Most of the AOG'ers were against those you spoke to.
They were dealing with it. My purpose in writing what I did was not to
condemn you, just to prevent a big us/them pep rally from taking plce. I
don't see why some inour movement treat those from other groups as if they
should know better.

God must draw the person. The only reason we have the revelation of Oneness
is because God gave it ot us. Man was lost. We would know nothing of God
unless He showed us. Thus the Incarnation. In a sense, we all have our own
experience on the Mount of Transfiguration when Moses and Elijah (the Law
and Prophets=the word of God) made it clear to the disciples who Jesus
really was. Once you know who He is, there is nothing like it. But people
can no more make that happen than Peter and John could have forced Jesus to
transfigure.

Its fun to argue and debate at times. (I did it all through high school)
But we need a fresh Apostolic anointing if our words are to have power
today. That is why I am glad to see this fasting thread come up. I am
feeling led these days to fast and draw closer to God.

>which I was just not actually putting the verses on the post.  I then started
>using the verses and such.  They then accused me of something called
>"proof" texting.  


Proff texting is the using of one verse of Scripture to prove a point,
without showing that this usage is consistant with other verses. A
trinitarian example of proof-texting is using Matt. 28:19 to be the
baptismal formula neglecting all the verses in Acts and the Epistles. All
you need to do is show context. Remember chapters and verses came in
hundreds of years after the Bible was written.

I said that yes, I was using the Bible to prove i'm right.
>At this point the discussion turned debate was overblown.  I seen that
>and so did some of the members.  I admit I did get a little fiesty when
>a few pesonal attacks on me came to me off-the-list.  Those members
>were the same ones who broke down *every* word I used and tried to
>find fault in everything BUT the Bible.  I backed off and so did some of
>the member,(not all).  

They probably didn't act fairly. Most people don't in these debates. The
only safe way around that is to make ONE good point at a time and leave the
others to discuss.

At this point, I dug down deep.  I am not an expert
>at all on the trinity vs. oneness but really felt that the points they made,
>all non-biblical, were wrong so *I* used the Bible to reply from that point
>on.  No UPCI material, no books discussing the oneness, nada, zilch, nothing.

Chris, the "how many fathers does Jesus have?" argument is from Gordon
Magee's work, "Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus?" Maybe
you heard it from your pastor or someone, but when they hear it they will
trace it back to that source. The point Magee was making shorthand was that
if the Son was the Son eternally and the Father is the Father eternally and
the Holy Ghost was the Holy Ghost eternally, and their distinct personages
are deined by this and other things then the distinctions must be blurred
if the Father and Holy Ghost are both doing the same thing. In other words,
if the Father and Holy Ghost's distinction is i what they do and they do
the same thing, then why make a distinction, hence, Oneness.

You have to remember not everyone can make those kind of logical jumps
anymore. Sometimes it has to be explained point by point.

>I stayed up from 9pm to 3am recently replying to the discussion.  I personally
>found a lot of scripture and did a LOT of reading in the Bible that night. 
>Verses
>kept coming to me that I never even thought about until then.  I know that God
>was showing me these verses.  The whole post was very positive and
>never rude.  What happened after I posted that?  I got many replies and NONE
>had verses or use of the BIble.  They all talked about the history of the
>church
>and how the trinity has existed for a long time and so it is right.

That is true. But one of the easiest ways to see what the Bible meant to
the EARLY church is to see what they wrote about it. I din't care what was
written about it after approx. AD 200 because so many false teachers had
crept in. If you read Matthew Shaws post on the AOG list, then you will see
what many of the early church folk wrote about the Bible was Oneness.
>
>Now back to me.  If you were to meet me before judging me Brother,
>and I do not mean that in a bad way, you will find I am one that is very
>kind and loves to discuss things with "rational" people.  You have to know
>that on a computer it is hard to see feelings.  Because I was discussing
>oneness, they were ready to attack.  Since you were watching the discussion
>you will notice that I went to bow out of it with a final post I had that asked
>*everyone* on the A/G list to pray that if what I was saying (oneness) was
>right
>then that God would show it to them.  This post was VERY kind and in NO way
>rude and they attacked me!  What was the reply?  One member called praying
>to God for him to show you something, a cultish thing.  You will also notice
>that I posted a list of questions regarding the trinity and they refused to
>answer
>them.  I answered their questions but they said mine were ludicrus because it
>said God was One and not three.
>
What they were responding to was that when Mormons come to witness, they
tell you to pray and find a witness in your heart that their book is true.
Many of them receive a "witness" We are to test the spirits by the word.
Not the Word by the spirits.

>Oh well, I better end this post, it is about a mile long now, but want you to
>know
>that I am not a flamer nor do I act anything like this Steve Winter guy.  I am
>deeply offended and upset that you would be so rash to say such a thing.  I am
>growing in Christ just like many people are and I am curious about the oneness
>vs. trinity discussion, because of this, I am apt to join in on the discussion.
>
I admired your apology to the AOG list, Chris, even though some of them
don't know what to make of it. But stick with it and they will see the
fruit.

>Whats wrong with saying im a One God Apostolic red escort pony driver?  :P
>
I'm sorry about that. I just don't like cliches.

God bless,

Frank