Marriage

• Messages sorted by:[ date ][ thread ][ subject ][ author ]

Bro. Timothy Litteral,

Greetings dear friend, and brother! God’s blessings be upon your head!!

If I may, I’d like a stab at responding to this one…

>MeShea:
>My dad just would not do it.  He is a peacemaker and
>often ends discussion with the phrase "you may be right" instead of "but
>your wrong."  He does that even when he KNOWS your wrong.  I guess that's
>what I should work on doing :-).
>
>Bro. Tim:
><gameshow buzzer>
>
>Wrong answer!  While it might reduce the volume level in the household, we
>are commanded:
>
>Ephesians 4
>14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried
>about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning
>craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
>
>15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which
>is the head, even Christ:
>
>16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that
>which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the
>measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of
>itself in love.
>
>Speak the truth in love...
>
>Jesus confronted people.  If you intend to be like Him, so will you.  ;-)
>
>Timothy Litteral

I guess the first thing I’d like to ask you, bro. Tim, is what then do you
do with this scripture?…

Mat 5:25  **Agree with thine adversary quickly**, whiles thou art in the way
with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the
judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

Or with this scripture?…

Mat 5:39  But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall
smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40  And if any
man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak
also. 41  And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42  Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee
turn not thou away. 43  Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt
love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44  But I say unto you, Love your
enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray
for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45  That ye may be
the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to
rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the
unjust. 46  For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not
even the publicans the same? 47  And if ye salute your brethren only, what
do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48  Be ye therefore
perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Not moved yet? :-) How about this next one, if I may ask, how does your
theology fit with it?…

1 Cor 8:2  And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth
nothing yet as he ought to know. 3  But if any man love God, the same is
known of him.

(Hmmmm, whadda ya know? There’s that "love" thing again!) :-)

You see, there seems to be another side to the story, when we’re talking
about love.

Rom 12:10  Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in
honour *preferring* one another;

How does one prefer others while at the same time not allowing that one’s
self could be the one in error, no matter how right they perceive themselves
to be?

Now how about this one…

Phil 2:3  Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness
of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

Have you NEVER been very adamant that you were right, but later found out
you were entirely in the wrong? NEVER?

1 Cor 13:12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:
now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

I’m sure you are aware that Paul said- Rom 3:7 "…the truth of God hath more
abounded through my *lie* unto his glory;"

For, he says- Rom 3:4 …yea, let God be true, but **every man a liar**; as it
is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest
overcome when thou art judged.

Paul could say this, not because he didn’t think he was right when he
preached, but because Paul also at the same time had THIS attitude- Phil
3:13  Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I
do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those
things which are before, 14  I press toward the mark for the prize of the
high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15  Let us therefore, as many as be
perfect, be thus minded:

In other words, if I may take the liberty to paraphrase, but not as if
presuming to improve on one of the greatest writers in the history of man-
"I count not myself to have apprehended, and if you are perfect, you’ll be
thus minded also!!!"

How can *one* ever be so sure one is NOT POSSIBLY wrong, if one also holds
these attitudes of Paul’s, which he exhorts us to attain unto?

Now, here’s where such an attitude (of being so sure of yourself that you
feel you must correct everyone else when you "know" you are right, and they
are wrong) would seem to actually get quite scary. From my perspective
anyway (perspective- not opinion)…

1 Cor 3:4  For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos;
are ye not carnal?

1 Cor 11:18  For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear
that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. 19  For there
must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made
manifest among you. 20  When ye come together therefore into one place, this
is not to eat the Lord's supper.

When we start claiming something to the effect that "I’m right, and you’re
wrong, and I'm not compromising", we may as well be saying "I’m of the mind
of Paul, and you are the mind of Apollos," just as Paul was referring to as
was going on at Corinth.

Where’s the love in that? Where's the brotherhood, and preferring others,
and esteeming others better than one’s self in all that?

In other words- what do you do once you’ve exhorted someone to what you are
absolutely SURE is absolute fact, and they don’t see eye to eye with you? If
you haven’t won them over to being in one mind and accord with you, then
what do you do, brother Timothy?

Here’s an example from Jesus-

Mat 26:21  And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of
you shall betray me… 25  Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said,
Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.

So what did Jesus do? He confronted him, as you’ve exhorted us He would do,
right bro. Timothy? 

Well, not exactly…

John 13:27  And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto
him, That thou doest, do quickly.

I’m just curious how the fact that Jesus tolerated His betrayer, and left
him unrebuked, but rather seems to have actually encouraged him toward
betrayal, fits your theology?

You see, my question is, once you’ve spoken your mind, and the other has
rejected it, what do you do with them then? Count them as an enemy? After
all, YOU are right- you’ve gotten the revelation from God of the "full
truth", and you are to speak the truth in love without compromise, right?

2 Th 3:14  And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man,
and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15  Yet count him not
as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

Though He didn’t actually confront him, Jesus actually did subtly rebuke
Judas, when, after saying that one of them would betray Him, Judas asked if
it was himself, and Jesus said, "thou has said" (Mat 12:37  For by thy words
thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.) 

Interesting thing the statement "have no company with him" (in Th 3:14
above), because in Jesus’ case, He was certainly in company with Judas at
the last supper. He even allowed Himself to be kissed by Judas, and called
him "friend" knowing that Judas was in the very act of betrayal… -Mat 26:49
And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him. 50
And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come?

What I see here, is Jesus perfectly exemplifying not being a company with
him in being a partaker in the unfruitful WORKS of darkness, and yet not
judging the individual. He didn't go with him, but He suffered Himself to be
defrauded, once Judas brought the law down on Him. 

Man, that’s love.

So back to my question- what do YOU do when you’ve spoken the truth in love
to someone, and they still think you are wrong? 

The big problem I have witnessed with this, is that people get this idea
that since they are supposed to be uncompromising with the "full truth",
then, anyone who doesn’t share their particular precise perspective of what
they have defined as the "full truth", are to be confronted, and if they
reject the "full truth" why, they must be lost souls. From what I’ve seen,
this isn’t what I believe is called "enlightenment", rather, it is called
"sectarianism". Because the next step is to splinter off from the body, and
form a new congregation, or denomination, claiming itself to have "the full
truth".

1 Cor 12:21  And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee:
nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

But you know what else, which I'm sure you do? No matter how much we try and
convince someone of anything, God reserves unto Himself the sovereignty
within Himself to enlighten anyone, or to conceal from anyone, anything you
or I or anyone else may presume to preach!

1 Cor 3:7  So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that
watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

1 Cor 2:10  But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit
searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11  For what man knoweth
the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the
things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12  Now we have
received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that
we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1 John 2:20  But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all
things. 21  I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but
because ye know it,

You see, the scripture says-

Acts 21:22  What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together:

This is because-

1 Cor 12:21  And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee:
nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22  Nay, much more
those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23
And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon
these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more
abundant comeliness. 24  For our comely parts have no need:

This is why that scripture goes on to say, as you quoted… 

Eph 4:16  From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by
that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the
measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of
itself in love.

Do you yet see, my brother, that "the full truth" is a corporate thing, and
not an individually bestowed or possessed thing?

Psa 133:1 …Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell
together in unity! 2  It is like the precious ointment upon the head,

I've seen too many people think that because the scripture says-

John 16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you
into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall
hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

…they think they have been individually endowed with "the full truth"!

And they affirm- "see, I believe God has lead ME into all truth" not
realizing that what Jesus was said "you"

You see, it says the Spirit will guide "YOU", not "thee". That is one of the
beauties of the KJV. If this passage were meaning we are lead individually
into all truth, it would have said "thee" (Strong's #4571) which is
singular, but the scripture says ""you" (Strong's #521), which is plural, or
corporate.

Furthermore, in context, Jesus was not speaking generally to all saints! He
was speaking very specifically to, and in intimate conversation with, the
highest leaders of the church, whom He had personally ordained, whom He had
also gathered together, and were at that very moment, in closest possible
communion with Him.

Heb 5:4  And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called
of God, as was Aaron.

Now how adamant do we want to be that we are right?

Because, after all-

Mark 3:25  …if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

For, we see, the scripture also says this…

Rom 13:14  But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for
the flesh (as in 1 Cor 3:4?) , to fulfil the lusts thereof. 14:1  Him that
is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations… 3  Let
not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which
eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4  Who art thou
that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or
falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.


But wait a minute, most of these scriptures are about earnestly contending
for the faith (Jude 1:3), aren't they? Including the passage you quoted? 

But isn't the heading of this discussion simply "Marriage".

What's my point? My point is this- when we are defending the faith, we are
standing up for Jesus' Word, not for ourselves!

Jude 1:9  Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he
disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing
accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

So then, the scriptures seem to be telling me, at least, that standing up
for *ourselves*, is clearly not what Christian love is all about. For it is
written…

1 Cor 13:4  Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not;
**charity vaunteth not itself**, is not puffed up, 5  Doth not behave itself
unseemly, **seeketh not her own**, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

1 Cor 6:7 …Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer
yourselves to be defrauded?

Rom 12:19  Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto
wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20  Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink:
for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21  Be not
overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

>From my perspective, it is usually the bullies on the beach that are the
one's who feel determined to impose themselves upon others, and that through
insecurity. The strong one's are the one's who realize they don't need to
impose themselves, because if and when push comes to shove, they, having a
confidence in a tried and true strength, have a quiet assurance that they
won't be the one's hurt, nor do they wish to hurt others.

Heb 11:1  Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of
things not seen… 6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he
that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of
them that diligently seek him.

So then I ask you, brother…

1 Cor 6:7 …Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer
yourselves to be defrauded?

When the word says…

Rom 12:19  Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves…?

But hey, I could be wrong. 

Because, after all, like I said, this is just my perspective, isn't it?  And
therefore…

You could be right.

---

Mat 5:9  Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children
of God.

1 Pet 5:1  The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder,
and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory
that shall be revealed: 2  Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking
the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy
lucre, but of a ready mind; 3  Neither as being lords over God's heritage,
but being ensamples to the flock. 4  And when the chief Shepherd shall
appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. 5  Likewise,
ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. YEA, ALL OF YOU BE SUBJECT ONE
TO ANOTHER, and BE CLOTHED WITH HUMILITY: for God resisteth the proud, and
giveth grace to the humble. 6  Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty
hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: 7  Casting all your care
upon him; for he careth for you.

-Bro. Tom Raddatz, wishing to always count myself not to have apprehended-
that I may attain the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. And
desiring also that I may always have the strength and confidence in God, to
say- hey, I could be wrong! :-) Yea, Let God be true, and every man a liar!!!

(P.S. I'm on "Digest" status, so pardon me if this is untimely, or happens
to duplicate any previous submissions of the day)