Marriage

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My dear Brother Timothy,

At 12:50 AM 8/22/99 CDT (digest!!), you wrote:

>MeB4:
>Speak the truth in love...
>
>Jesus confronted people.  If you intend to be like Him, so will you.  ;-)
>
>BroTom:
>I guess the first thing I’d like to ask you, bro. Tim, is what then do you
>do with this scripture?…
>
>Me:
>Ummm...  Try to rightly divide it.  ;->
>
>Wow!  You haven't lost your flare to be *thorough*, have ya?  ;-)  Problem
>is, this is just a HUGE straw man...  Let me illustrate.
>
>
>BroTom:
>Mat 5:25  **Agree with thine adversary quickly**, whiles thou art in the way
>with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the
>judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
>
>Me:
>I hope you are not proffering that this means to agree with whomever has a
>complaint against you or disagrees with you, especially if you believe very
>strongly that they are wrong.  This means that if someone has a *legitamate*
>complaint with you, make it right with them of your own accord and not of
>force.

Bro. Tim, it is written again-

1 Cor 6:7 …**Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer
yourselves to be defrauded?** 8  Nay, **ye do wrong**, and defraud, and that
your brethren.

>While this is of course sage advice in a marriage, it has nothing to do with
>never arguing.  Why is it so hard to invision that the means by which you
>can achieve this *agreement* is through a debate, and yes, with the
>particularly hard headed, a heated debate complete with *sinless* anger?

Simply because, it is written again-

Rom 1:29  Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness,
covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, **DEBATE**, deceit,
malignity; whisperers, 30  Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud,
boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31  Without
understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable,
unmerciful: 32  Who knowing the judgment of God, that **THEY WHICH COMMIT
SUCH THINGS ARE WORTHY OF DEATH**, not only do the same, but have pleasure
in them that do them.  2:1  **Therefore thou art inexcusable**,

2 Cor 12:20  FOR I FEAR, LEST, WHEN I COME, I shall not find you such as I
would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: **LEST THERE
BE DEBATES**, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings,
swellings, tumults: 21  And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me
among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have
not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which
they have committed.

<snip>

BroTim:
>Jesus said things that made people MAD all the time:
>
>Matthew 15
>12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the
>Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
>
>Yet He spoke the Truth in Love, did He not?
>
>Jesus was angry without sin:
>
>John 2
>14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the
>changers of money sitting:
>
>15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of
>the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money,
>and overthrew the tables;
>
>16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my
>Father's house an house of merchandise.
>
>About love...
>
>Leviticus 19
>17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise
>rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

You are comparing apples with kumquats, my brother. These scriptures are
talking about rebuke, but *your* very words are defending, justifying even
glorifying "debates". And the way you appear to be doing that is by calling
debates rebukes, which they are not.

DEBATE- "2054. eris, er'-is; of uncert. affin.; a quarrel, i.e. (by impl.)
wrangling:--contention, debate, strife, variance."

Rom 13:13  Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and
drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, NOT IN STRIFE (#2054 ERIS-
DEBATE) and envying. 14  But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not
provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

1 Cor 1:11  For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them
which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions (#2054 eris-
debates) among you. 12  Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of
Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13  Is Christ
divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

1 Cor 3:3  For **ye are yet carnal**: for whereas there is among you
envying, and strife (#2054 eris- DEBATES), and divisions, **are ye not
carnal, and walk as men**?

Gal 5:19  Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these;
Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20  Idolatry,
witchcraft, hatred, variance (#2054 eris- DEBATES), emulations, wrath,
strife, seditions, heresies, 21  Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings,
and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in
time past, that **THEY WHICH DO SUCH THINGS SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF
GOD.**

1 Tim 6:3  If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words,
even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is
according to godliness; 4  **He is proud, knowing nothing**, but doting
about questions and strifes of words, **whereof cometh envy, STRIFE  (#2054
eris- DEBATES)**, railings, evil surmisings, 5  Perverse disputings of men
of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is
godliness: from such withdraw thyself. 6  But godliness with contentment is
great gain.

Titus 3:9  But AVOID foolish questions, and genealogies, and CONTENTIONS
(#2054 eris- DEBATES), and strivings about the law; for **THEY ARE
UNPROFITABLE AND VAIN**. 10  A man that is an heretic after the first and
second admonition reject; 11  Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and
sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Brother Timothy, go ahead and debate that!

Acts 5:39 …lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

Rom 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?

What Jesus was doing with the Pharisees were not at all debates, but
rebukes, as has been written for us-

1 Tim 5:19  Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or
three witnesses. 20  **Them that sin rebuke before all**, that others also
may fear. 21  I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the
elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before
another, doing nothing by partiality.

Which, "rebuke", means- "1651. elegcho, el-eng'-kho; of uncert. affin.; to
confute, admonish:--convict, convince, tell a fault, rebuke, reprove."

Jude 1:9  Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he
disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing
accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Consider yourself confronted, and rebuked, brother Timothy. And thereby also
know assuredly that I do not, and have not criticized nor condemned
rebuking, but rather I simply denounce "debates" in order to conform myself
with the scriptures that specifically and emphatically condemn such. 

But if you have been rebuked, it has not been by my words, nor my opinion,
nor what you have called a straw-man. Rather, by the quoting of scriptures,
which I have also done according to scripture (Jude 1:9). By which I have
also shared with you the source of what I told you was my perception, for
which you also spoke against me according to your own words…

>BroTom:
>Because, after all, like I said, this is just my perspective, isn't it?  And…
BroTim:
>"be justified in thy sayings and mightest overcome when thou art judged..."
>This is done by not giving a man's perspective, but God's.  ;->

If I can impart this perception against debates unto you by merely quoting
scriptures, how is it merely a "man's perspective", brother Timothy? 

Now then, having quoted the word of the Living God, which has provided me
and you God's perspective, I will not debate this subject with you. :-) 

I will now…

Rom 12:19 …rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is
mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

John 6:61 …Doth this offend you?

1 Sam 24:12  The LORD judge between me and thee, and the LORD avenge me of
thee: but *mine hand* shall not be upon thee.

**

In response to brother Robert Brown…

>Subject: Re: Marriage
>
>>>>>> "Timothy" == Timothy Litteral <brotim@netzero.net> writes:
>
>    Timothy> While this is of course sage advice in a marriage, it has
>    Timothy> nothing to do with never arguing.  Why is it so hard to
>    Timothy> invision that the means by which you can achieve this
>    Timothy> *agreement* is through a debate, and yes, with the
>    Timothy> particularly hard headed, a heated debate complete with
>    Timothy> *sinless* anger?
>
>The classical description of personality breaks personality traits
>into 4 categories: sanguine, choleric, melancholy, and phlegmatic.
>*The words are of Greek origin, as is the breakdown theory.*  Without
>digging into the theory, let it be said that the cholerics just love a 
>good argument, debate, etc., while the phlegmatics will do just about
>anything to avoid any kind of confrontation.

<snip>

>Bro. Timothy, you and I are cholerics.  Some of the people on this
>list are phlegmatics.  We are all Christians.  If we can understand
>that not everyone has the same emotional makeup, nor should they, then
>we can begin to identify the personalities of others as well as
>ourselves.  This will help us greatly in relating to those of
>different personality types.
>
>I recomend the book "Personality Plus", (can't remember author, but
>she is female) as an easy reading but good introduction to this
>fascinating subject.

Dear Brother Brown, 

If you have read the scriptures I have quoted for bro. Timothy, and as you
have made recommendation, may I also recommend to you, the book "the Holy
Bible" written under inspiration (ghost written by) -The Holy Ghost- whom is
Jesus Christ Himself?…  :-)

Col 2:8  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit,
after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after
Christ.

Rom 12:1  I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye
present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is
your reasonable service. 2  And **be not conformed to this world**: but **be
ye transformed by the renewing of your mind**, that ye may prove what is
that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Rom 7:18  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good
thing...

Rom 6:16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey,
his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of
obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ
Jesus, who **walk not after the flesh**, but after the Spirit… 5  For they
that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are
after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6  For to be carnally minded is
death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7  Because the carnal
mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither
indeed can be. 8  So then **they that are in the flesh cannot please God.**
9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit
of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is
none of his. 10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin;
but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11  But if the Spirit of
him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up
Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit
that dwelleth in you. 12  Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the
flesh, to live after the flesh. 13  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall
die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall
live. 14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

James 1:21  Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of
naughtiness, and receive with meekness **the engrafted word, which is able
to save your souls.**

Surely, as colors of the rainbow, we all have beautifully differing
personalities- different talents, and different gifts and callings, as the
word says, which our God, in His infinite, Almighty power, can use each to
His glory. 

But shall we, as if to justify such, ascribe a category of mere "personality
differences" to a trait of the flesh which HIS WORD lists along with
murders, adultery, fornication and idolatry?

Would knowing someone is a "murderer" type "help us greatly in relating to
those of different personality types."?
 
Gal 5:19  Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these;
Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20  Idolatry,
witchcraft, hatred, VARIANCE (#2054 eris- DEBATES), emulations, wrath,
strife, seditions, heresies, 21  Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings,
and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in
time past, that **THEY WHICH DO SUCH THINGS SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF
GOD.**

Is this word of God wrong? Outdated? Exaggerated?

I think not. Rather, I believe…

2 Pet 1:19 **WE HAVE** also **A MORE SURE WORD** of prophecy; **WHEREUNTO YE
DO WELL THAT YE TAKE HEED**, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place,
until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20  Knowing this
first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21  For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men
of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2:1  But there were false
prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among
you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies…

May the Lord bless you all,
bro. Tom Raddatz