History Lesson

David Smith (davesmith@ns.sympatico.ca)
Tue, 24 Aug 1999 18:48:51 -0300
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I also included this on a file to retain the Hebrew and Greek fonts. See
it for a clearer reading.


Dear Brothers and Sisters,

First let me apologize for not labeling my last post as a long post.

Bro. Litteral your letter was plagued with contradictions.  For
instance:

T.L. writes: “I disregard garbage after INTENSE RESEARCH, MUCH
DISCUSSION
WITH ANYONE WHO WILL LISTEN.” and  “I dig into the EVIDENCE.  If the
evidence
supports the man's conclusions, I accept them, if it does not, I reject
them.”

You claim to do “intense research” and “dig into the evidence,” then
write:
“I deleted the rest more or less unread.  Great screen door material
from what I did read
though.”

You also claim “much discussion with anyone who will listen” and then
answering to only
my 2nd post you tell me: “Take care of these or I will totally disregard
any further
arguments as insincere.”

Tim what is enough proof for you and what is too much?

I wrote, “No original manuscripts have made it down to our time.”

T.L. writes: “And upon exactly what do you base this ASSUMPTION?  You
guys keep
throwing that out like it is a foregone, eyewitnessed, verifiable FACT.
What “evidence” is
there to support this claim of yours?”

If there is an original New Testament manuscript, even a single one of
the epistles, where
is it Tim?  Is it in the Vatican, where Catholics can go and worship
it?  Or maybe in a
museum in London or Jerusalem?  Everyone knows no autographed originals
survived
except you Tim.  Unless you have one at your house, or know of one that
has been
recently discovered, please tell me so I can get in the lineup to gawk
at it.

We know none survived because all the known manuscripts have not been
autographed or
signed by the author. How do we know people signed their writings just
like we do today?
We read Paul:
 1Co 16:21  The salutation (signature) of me Paul with mine own hand.
 Ga 6:11 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own
hand.

What does the signature mean?
 2Th 3:17  The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token
(#4592) in
every epistle: so I write. #4592  semeion: a sign, mark, token, that by
which a person or a
thing is distinguished from others and is known.

Paul says it is a sign or mark by which his letters can be
distinguished.  He told the
Thessalonians this because he makes reference to other false letters
coming, not from him,
but reputed to be.

 2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by
spirit, nor by
word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
NIV supposed to have
come from us RSV purporting to be from us

So if there is ever found an autographed, authenticated original we will
know, because it
will be in every newspaper and on ever television from here to the
Kalahari.

T. L. writes: “Two quick comments.  Josephus is a Helenization of a
Hebrew name.  This
proves that the man was Helenized himself.”

Jesus is a Helenization of a Hebrew name ( that’s what the discussion is
all about),
following your logic this would prove the Messiah was Helenized as well.

T. L. writes (Speaking of Josephus): “The passages you refer to only
show that though he
KNEW and WROTE Greek, that because of his past religious fanaticism, he
was ‘fluent’
in it.”

Read it again Tim, Josephus tells us that, “with the aid of some
assistants,” he later
translated his work
into Greek. [Jos., Apion, l:9.]  Yet, he found the task as translator
immensely wearisome
because, as he informs us, he had to translate “so vast a subject into a
foreign and
UNFAMILIAR TONGUE.” [Jos., Antiq., pref., 2.]

>From Jos., Antiq., 20:11:1. he writes:“ For those of my own nation
freely acknowledge
that I far exceed them in learning belonging to the Jews; I have also
taken a great deal of
pains to obtain the learning of Greek letters and prose, although I have
so long
accustomed myself to speak our own tongue, that I cannot pronounce Greek
with
sufficient exactness: for our nation does not encourage those that learn
the languages of
many nations, and (who) so adorn their discourses with the smoothness of
their periods;
because they
look upon this sort of accomplishment as beneath their dignity.”

He adds, “There have been many who have done their endeavors with great
patience to
obtain this learning, there have yet hardly been so many as two or three
that have
succeeded therein.”

So Tim here is a 1st century eye witness who says his “own nation freely
acknowledge
that I far exceed them in learning.”  Yet he admitted Greek was to him
an “UNFAMILIAR
TONGUE.” He also needed assistants to translate from Hebrew to Greek
even after “taken
a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of Greek letters and
prose.”  He goes on to add
“our nation (Israel) does not encourage those that learn the languages
of many nations.”
He doesn’t stop there but concludes by saying even after endeveroring
“with great
patience to obtain this learning there have yet hardly been so many as
two or three that
have succeeded therein.”

You would have us believe fishermen could read and write Greek when we
see a highly
educated priest struggled desperately to obtain even a rough knowledge
of the language.

T. L. writes: “I said that it was common for those who did know how to
write in those
days to use the “common” language of Greek since the Romans and most
others
surrounding the area ALSO spoke it
along with their native language.”

Where is your 1st century eye witness Tim?

Tim wrote: “Iezues would be the Greek transliteration of "God with us"
or Immanuel.”
Mt 1:23 Emmanuel   Greek #1694 IEmmanouhl, of Hebrew origin #06005.
Hebrew # 06005 lawnm[, from 05973 and 0410;  Immanuel = "God with us" or
"with us is
God" 05973  with,  0410  God.

Remember the difference between translate and transliterate.
The Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd Edition, 1989 vol. 18, p. 411.
Transliterate, to replace
(letters of one language) by those of another used to represent the same
sounds.
Whereas translate is defined as transferring the meaning from one
language into another.

So transliterate is to carry the sound; translate is to carry the
meaning. Transliterate the
sound, translate the meaning. Nothing to it.

Immanuel in Hebrew is lawnm[, Immanuel in Greek is IEmmanouhl,
Immanuel in English
is Immanuel. They all sound the same because they were all
transliterated correctly. If
Immanuel was not transliterated but was translated  it would be God with
us, that is its
meaning.  In Mt. 1:23 it was written by Matthew as  lawnm[,
transliterated into Greek as
IEmmanouhl, and in 1611 transliterated into English as Immanuel. It was
also translated, or
as the KJV puts it interpreted, in Mt 1:23 last line - God with us. So
we see it was both
transliterated as well as translated all in the same verse.  This proves
names can indeed be
transliterated (carry the same pronunciation) from Hebrew into Greek and
then into
English.

 On the other hand Jesus was not properly transliatered.  The Savior’s
name in Hebrew is
[wfwhy, in Greek it was poorly transliterated as Ihsouj, and somehow
ended up in the KJV
(1611) as Iesvs.  Not sounding even remotely like His original Hebrew
name. We know
the Hebrew form of the Savior’s name because it is the same as the Old
Testament Joshua
(book after Deuteronomy).

In David Bernard’s book “Oneness of God” {p.50 - 51}  we read,  “Jesus
is the Greek
equivalent of the Hebrew name variously rendered as Jehoshua (Nu,
13:16), Jeshua (Ezra
2:2), or Joshua (Ex. 17:9).  Both Acts 7:45 and He. 4:8 show that Jesus
is the same name
as Joshua. (Compare these passages in the KJV to the NIV.)

Look for yourself in Strong’s Greek Dictionary under Jesus #2424, it
tells you it’s taken
from the Hebrew #3091, which is the same number for Joshua.  Turn to
Strong’s Hebrew
Dictionary #3091 you’ll find the Savior’s name, as well as Joshua’s, is
a combination of
#3068 Yahweh, and #3467 yesha, meaning to deliver, save, rescue.

Joshua is almost a perfect transliteration from its Hebrew original
(except for its J sound
which replaced the proper Y sound about 300 years ago). Joshua sounds
very close to the
proper Yahshua, whereas Jesus sounds nothing at all like the original.
This proves that
since Joshua was transliterated nearly correctly, and that both Joshua
and Jesus are from
the same Hebrew word, Jesus could have been translated at least as
closely as Joshua.

Dave

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