Apostleship (was ONENESS ONENESS)
Tom Raddatz (tomr@corecom.net)
Mon, 16 Sep 1996 14:46:35 -0800
My dear Brother Bassett, and all,
I must say, Bro. Mark, that your question to me in our private emails about
whether or not my sword has a scabbard has touched my heart.
For this reason, and some of the statements you made in your last post at
the ONENESS ONENESS thread, I would like to offer that you and I find, here
in this new thread, a place that we may "catch hold on the horns of the
altar" (1Ki 1:50-53) so to speak.
Though I don't wish to totally put up my sword, nor do I want you to, it is
my intention in this thread NOT to point it towards, or at, you, or anyone
else in this particular thread. Okay? Is that agreeable? :-)
It's not that I don't have a few more serious words to say to you, rather
that I'll save those for the other thread. And it's not that I want to sound
"double-minded" either. It's just that, from some of the things you have
said, and from what I've received from Jesus in prayer, there still remains
two overbearing, extenuating circumstances that must be kept in focus above
all others-
1) I do still consider you my brother, therefore, though our disagreements
are real, at this point I still consider them "family" problems- not "enemy"
problems.
2) My (and I believe also God's) desire for us to work toward, and
accomplish REAL unity through our discussions is MUCH MORE important, and
prevailing than the weight of our differences.
And one lesser one- I do need to show, as you've implied, that I have more
than one side...
Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye
therefore wise as serpents, AND harmless as doves.
So, what do you say we pull up an easy chair, put up our feet for a while,
and chat- Shall we?
(These are, I confess, the sounds of a "wee bit intense" guy trying with all
he can to chill-out as best he can!) ;-)
-----
Besides, I like the way this conversation is going, I am very pleased with
many of the points that are being made here, (and disappointed in others),
and I have some points to add, and (huh-humm) some more of my infamous
questions...! ;-)
First off, as to the fact that there are people actually "doing the work of"
apostles, I have absolutely NO disagreement. In fact I would be very
surprised to hear otherwise.
This is because the word of God says-
1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he
desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then MUST BE BLAMELESS... 8 Likewise must
the deacons be... 10 And let these also FIRST BE PROVED; THEN let them use
the office of a deacon, being found blameless."
By the key operative words above- "must be blameless" and "first be proved"
we should, first of all, find that there should always be men/women standing
in the wings, doing works greater than their present calling requires.
For example, in the way they chose out the first deacons...
Act 6:2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them,
and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve
tables. 3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest
report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this
business... 5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose
Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and
Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas
Some works these men were already doing stood out beyond the works of
others. When we look at the men whom the disciples chose to present before
the Lord for HIS choice of an Apostle to replace Judas, they also had to
meet certain criteria...
Act 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time
that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 Beginning from the baptism
of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be
ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. 23 And they appointed
two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And
they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew
whether of these two thou hast chosen,"
Now, it doesn't specifically say here that they chose men who specifically
met the requirements of first being blameless, and then being proven. But it
gives us clues to this very fact.
For instance, we must remember that, not only would they have had to have
stayed with Jesus even after He was crucified and they were scattered, but
they must also have been there to hear, and to have accepted, and absorbed
His hard sayings such as- John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily,
verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink
his blood, ye have no life in you.... 60 Many therefore of his disciples,
when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto
them, Doth this offend you?... 66 From that time many of his disciples went
back, and walked no more with him. 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will
ye also go away?" Among many other things.
Doesn't this remind us somewhat of Acts chap. 8 when they received the Holy
Ghost? It didn't specifically SAY there that they spoke in tongues, but it
is clear from the context that they must have, since something happened
BEYOND just seeing the miracles that convinced Simon the Sorcerer. I'm
making the comparison here because what we are talking about are "signs."
Outward signs that bore witness to inner facts.
I could use my calling as an evangelist as an example also. My pastor told
me many years ago that was the calling that the things I did testified of.
How did she know this? Simply because I was doing some certain works above
and beyond my capacity as merely a member of the laity.
Now, there is a different level in each stage of development that also
brings a greater power, in a new and living way! But first-
Isa 28:10 ...precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon
line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little...
Before my pastor recognized and mentioned my abilities as an evangelist
(which I myself didn't realize, and it stunned me actually), I was somewhat
confused of the direction of my works in God. But after it was confirmed by
her, once it was uttered, the words gave me a new power and for once a true
direction in my works- the words worked in me a new and living way.
And again, when I began writing on the 'net, I first had to produce some
writings (I had pre-approval from her in this also, by the way), but it
wasn't until after I'd written several postings, and brought them to her for
her examination- she surprised me by announcing to the whole church that a
new ministry had begun in our midst! The mere fact of this pronouncement,
you probably guessed it, worked AGAIN in me an even greater new and living
way, so that my writings overnight took on a power I didn't have before that
pronouncement.
Being found proven, and thereby a candidate to enter a new level, then,
requires being found proven in a capacity above and beyond those duties of
one's current position, and each confirmation or ordination brings even more
power to accomplish even greater feats.
That's what we see in the example of the first deacons... they were men who
were proven in their works and in the Holy Ghost. They, therefore, were
found to be doing works exceptionally BEYOND others in their same places at
the time. As the scripture says- "Let these FIRST be proven."
The point is this- there should ALWAYS be those patiently doing the works
above and beyond their call of duty, which works, though greater than their
current callings, would be merely expected from those at a higher level.
There simply is no other way around how any one could "first be proven."
This being the case, and if there are to be real apostles after the example
of the first church, it should not be surprising AT ALL that we find
individuals out there doing the work, yet not having had the actual title
ordained upon them. In fact, it would be a very sad state of affairs if we
had none.
Luk 19:17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: BECAUSE THOU HAST
BEEN faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities."
Luk 16:10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much...
Every body in agreement so far? Any contradicting scriptures to knock any
gaping holes in the argument yet? Is it airtight so far, or leaking like a
sieve? ;) (thanks again, Bro. Masoner, these thoughts from your words were
truly inspired. I hope you don't mind, and can forgive me, for plagiarizing
you a little here!)
Should this conviction I feel be true, (which I don't believe it is new, as
I've shared with you that they are stated in books from the UPC that also
speak of this, therefore I do not claim it as mine alone), then should we be
so bold and so convicted, I would suspect, that it would be just such as men
as you all have been testifying of, that we should consider, in presenting
to God from among us, for *HIS* consideration of, that highest of all
callings- Apostles!
The above is the answer I would give to Rex, who said-
>...their dedication to the work of God has promoted them to filling the same
>role of Apostles through history."
Yes, they are incontrovertibly possibly "filling the same role"- but the
question is, are they merely in a state of "first being proven," or have
they already been set into the office through PROPER, SCRIPTURAL ordination?
Because there is a difference. True or false?
The question now is- have I, or have I not shown thoroughly enough yet, that
it should be EXPECTED that there will always be men walking in the works of
callings higher than their own present ones, but which works would be merely
expected of those in positions above them?
Heb 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of
God, as was Aaron.
Have I sufficiently let the air out of Rex's position as stated above or not?
Now let me also ask this- aren't we all supposed to be showing "dedication
to the work of God..."
Are we then here, not attempting to use the fruits of the spirit as a sign
of an "ordained" Apostle, much like "Just Believers" might claim the fruits
of the Spirit are good enough of a sign of the receipt of the baptism of the
Holy Ghost?
---
Some more questions would thus arise at this point of the current state of,
for example, the men you all have postulated as "being" apostles, and
"leaders of leaders"-
Are these "apostles" in authority WELL OVER the "government" of the church,
or is the church "government" over the authority of these "apostles"?
In other words, could these men step out of a council made up entirely of
themselves only, proclaiming a directive from God, with scriptural witness,
toward a new and living way, and be able to be fully expecting that this new
vision will be freely accepted and immediately binding on the church of God,
without any dissent from anyone, as with the original Apostles? Even if that
decision called for an immediate and absolutely complete restructuring of
the "government" (i.e. a denomination such as the UPCI) from the ground up?
Or would they, these "Apostles," FIRST HAVE TO give an account to, and/or
receive an approval from, any another organizations or authorities that are
presumed to be above them (other than only to each other, the scriptures,
and God alone, of course)?
This, in my humble estimation, would be an example of a TRUE test of who is
actually in authority over whom. A test like this would prove which is truly
the servant, and which is the master?
When considering questions such as these, we MUST keep in mind God's
positioning of where the office of "governments" truly reside. Namely: BELOW
even that of any of the teachers, workers of miracles, or even helps...
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily
prophets, thirdly teachers, **AFTER THAT** miracles, then gifts of healings,
helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
For not only the apostles should have this type of authority over
"governments," but each of any members who are heading each several
"government" should have the same rule over their several "governments."
Which is to say, a teacher should have the lead over a certain government
pertaining to his/her work teaching, and this same teacher could help with,
but could not interfere in, the process of a government being lead by an
apostle or prophet, etc. of a higher calling of authority.
Any controversy here?
----
Now, the questions that I would like to ask all of us to work together with
in discovering God's perfect will from His perfect Holy Bible on are-
1) What, precisely, if any, are the signs, and/or the seal of a TRUE Apostle
of Jesus Christ?
2) What, precisely, scripturally, is involved in their ordination? In other
words, are there any "special" differences between the way an Apostle is
ordained, and any other minister?
3) Can we, again precisely, *PROVE* beyond a shadow of a scriptural doubt-
whether the FULL calling of Apostle IS OR IS NOT available for God's people
TODAY?
May I be so bold as to propose to you all, again, the possibility that God
has brought us to a place, much like he brought our brother Charles Parham
to nearly a century ago. Parham sought a definite, indisputable sign that
tallied EXACTLY with the word of God for receiving the baptism of the Holy
Ghost.
Is it then, that that (and the Oneness, etc.) was to be all that was left in
order to secure a full and total restoration of Christ's church?
Well, we're beyond those precepts, ladies and gentlemen, being firmly
grounded in them- and new challenges stand before the people of God!
The difference here merely is that Parham et. al. were seeking the sign of
the Holy Ghost, and we are seeking those of a true Apostle.
Whether we like it or not, whether we feel slighted or not, in maybe not
being properly invited to this party, (and I say this to whomever, whatever
may be any of our callings, even including my own beloved, and most
respected pastor), what we have here laid on the table before us all, IS a
situation to face, similar to that faced by Parham, and his students. In
fact, it is a repeat of the method of bringing issues to the table that
reaches all the way back to Acts chapter 11, if not Acts 1:20-26!
Even this is not so much profound as it is a simple, and obvious fact, is it
not? I mean, first off, we must search the scriptures daily to see if these
things are so (Act 17:11), and secondly, if we discover scriptural truths on
this subject that are found to be contradictory to the traditions and
opinions that we are currently walking in, yet we fail or refuse to shed
those old traditions and walk in the light of re-revealed scriptural truth,
wouldn't we have then just justified every man-made tradition in the whole
of so-called "Christendom" including those of Roman Catholicism, and
Trinitarianism?
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit,
after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after
Christ.
----
Bro. Bassett also himself got very close to crystallizing these very same
questions when he stated such things as-
>When we are asking if there are modern Apostles, we are really asking
>if the qualification of eyewitness is imposed on the office. The
>answer is obtained from scripture:
And I agree COMPLETELY with the questions he posed, and, well, huh-hummm,
partly anyway, with his conclusion-
>It seems that there were definitely 12 Apostles, but the question was
>intended to remain open for the rest of us. We can be Apostolic, but
>*will WE be Apostles ?*
This is very well stated.
But let's consider together the rest of the conclusion he has presented to us-
>Will we be stable and unmovable as a source
>of truth and light for a dying world, rescuing from darkness those who
>are desperately seeking refuge and life ?
And more questions arise- Namely in reference to such things as being
"stable and unmovable as a source of truth and light for a dying world" etc.
Are these, or are these being presented as, specific enough signs for an
unquestionable confirmation of the high calling of an Apostle?
Are not these, again, merely fruits that ALL of us should be manifesting,
and therefore not at all "special" signs?
Again, let's look back at Parham. He was seeking a sign of the Holy Ghost.
One had this answer, one had that answer, yet Parham remained unsettled. No
available OPINION satisfied his hunger for that one, absolute, tallying
exactly with the Bible, confirming bit of evidence with which he could
present to the world, while pointing to the Bible, and proclaim- "this is that"!
Let us consider together ALL the possibilities, and see if we can't come to
a unanimous conclusion, as they did in Topeka, what the SPECIFIC signs are.
I would like to present some possibilities-
1) That they saw the Lord. Since every one of the Apostles saw Jesus.
This one has already been brought up by Bro. Bassett. So I won't go on with
this one yet, here.
But what about this one-
2) Every one of them was appointed by God Himself.
In my previous post to Bro. Masoner I proved how that the Apostle Matthias
WAS NOT voted in by a majority of the disciples. Did I not?
Let me restate-
---
>Hence, when we look at Acts 1:26, we note that the "their lots" the two
small tablets, each >had one of the names placed it, making two, therefore
plural, "lots." Then it changed to >singular- "the lot fell on Matthias"
since his lot must have fallen out first....
>
>Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias;
and he was >numbered with the eleven apostles.
>
>We know that the majority is seldom ever the right way (i.e. Mat 7:13,
etc.). And that >people judge by the outward, but God judges by the heart.
Therefore, the casting of lots, >as the dictionary says, provides a method
of selection- "SECURE FROM ALL >INFLUENCE OF PASSION OR BIAS."
---
It is now time for us to turn again to words such as Rex's-
>Whether they are voted by Godly men in a well organized fellowship or not...
It is no contradiction that the Apostles are THE most unique group of people
in the New Testament church. For one, because EVERY ONE of them was both
hand picked, and ordained directly by God, and not by man. (Unless you are
so weak in the faith as to consider Jesus as being JUST a man) ;-)
We have established through these posts that there ARE individuals "doing
the works of" Apostles. But we must seriously consider the question- what
would the next step SCRIPTURALLY be for a proper ordination? And is such an
ordination available today?
Can we rely on the church body to "vote" them in?
My first contention would be that the apostles themselves didn't presume to
consider even themselves worthy enough to "vote" in successors to the
Apostleship. How much more presumptuous would we be in doing that then?
Act 1:20 For it is written... his bishoprick let another take... 24 And they
prayed, and said, *THOU, LORD,* which knowest the hearts of all men, *SHEW*
whether of these two thou hast chosen,"
Out of all the 120 there on that day, who knows how many of which had
actually been there the whole time? Something outwardly apparent brought
these two individuals to the forefront, out from among the fold. BUT IT
WASN'T WHAT WAS OUTWARDLY APPARENT THAT SECURED THE ORDINATION, something
which was inwardly apparent which ONLY GOD could see!
Now, which of us "Godly" people would be so presumptuous as to claim the
ability to SEE that which is inward and apparent ONLY to God? When even the
Apostles couldn't, and considering that their understanding had already been
opened at that time! Which happened back in Luke-
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the
scriptures,"
I propose to you all that for any of us to presume to attempt to discern
accurately, what is invisible to us, would be similar to the chances of a
blind-folded man trying to nail a gnat with a dart from 30 paces!
Any holes in this argument, folks?
Now, could we at all increase our probabilities of accuracy, let alone
ASSURE accuracy, were we to take a majority of votes?
Wouldn't that be as if to count a majority of attempts at nailing the gnat?
And the thing is, in our case, we wouldn't even get to take off our
blind-folds to check the accuracy of our throws, until it was probably way
to late for it to matter! How, then, would we even know assuredly whether
or not we had or hadn't hit the gnat? We may equally as likely have hit one
of our brothers in the eye, and truly blinded him, as to have been fortunate
enough to nail the gnat! Then multiply that times the number of folks
blindly throwing darts at the wall with every one of them in the same room
all having blindfolds on- not even suspecting when to duck! Haven't we then
actually increased our chances of hitting and harming each other than to a
point much greater than we'd ever hoped of in nailing the gnat? Because the
number of gnats haven't increased- there's still only that one perfect will
of God!
Even if it was down to a choice between just two individuals- are the
probabilities of our chances, even at 50/50, good enough in the sight of
God? Are these good enough odds for choosing the leaders of leaders of God's
chosen people considering ALSO the fact that we have an answering God right
here in our midst? :-0
Apparently the Apostles didn't think so.
Wouldn't it then be an insult to God to do anything less than to seek HIM
ONLY in such a matter, when we KNOW He is standing right here?
Wouldn't it be especially insulting if we forsook asking for His opinion
while not only knowing that He stands in our midst, but ALSO that HE HAS
PROMISED US - "Ask and it shall be given"?!?!?!? (Mat 7:7)
Considering all this, now how good and right and acceptable in the eyes of
God do you think it might be for us to search our own natural minds for whom
these leaders should be? Or maybe I should ask- anybody for a good game of
nailing the gnat blind-folded in a crowded room? There'll be no risk because
ONLY GODLY people are invited!
If this sounds insulting to certain man-made traditions, I don't know what
to say. Would God not have been insulted by this! I'm afraid I just can't,
for the life of me, accept that any truly Godly person would actually
consider, let alone actually show up for, such a carnal charade! In either case!
What then would we do with this scripture-
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of
men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye
may keep your own tradition... 13 Making the word of God of none effect
through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things
do ye.
Any comments?
-----
So, we've come against at least three (but possibly more) MAJOR counts
AGAINST a majority vote-
1) If we truly wish to be "Apostle-like" in this, we should not presume
authority for ourselves that even the original Apostles never presumed for
themselves. How could we? For none of us are even confirmed and ordained
Apostles as they were. Are we? Are there "ordained" Apostles that I am
unaware of? And if so, what authority was given for the presumption to make
such an ordination? Were they ordained directly from God, or not, since even
the apostles themselves claimed and possessed NO such authority to ordain
even one into their brotherhood?
2) To vote them in would be to break the commandment of God not to add to or
take away from the Word of God, since- a) no one of the early Apostles was
voted in and to do so therefore would be adding "voting", and b) to do so
would be taking away the method that was used by the Apostles themselves-
casting lots before God.
3) To vote Apostles into office according to our outward estimations of the
individuals, would be to ignore both the presence of Jesus in our midst, and
HIS ability to make HIS final determination, based on the what HE could see
of the inward man, rather than the outward, known to us.
Anybody still left here holding the "it's okay to vote in Apostles" stand?
Any holes in this argument, or counter points from any quarter?
----
Now, the bottom line question I must ask once again is- Just how willing are
we to assure that our faith tallies EXACTLY according to the Bible without
adding to or taking away ANYTHING from it's precious truths?
----
Allow me to restate as clearly and concisely as I can, the vision as I see
it in my mind: What we have before us here is an opportunity, through
seeking GOD alone, for having HIM lay before us again, the foundation of the
apostles, which would equate to the opportunity to restore before the world,
by rebuilding again the true Temple and Tabernacle of God, which is Jesus
Christ's One God, One Lord, one faith, one baptism CHURCH, in ALL it's
fullness, standing INDISPUTABLY scriptural before, above, and beyond all
other false and powerless imitations, contrasted by having His church
founded upon, and walking under, GOD ORDAINED APOSTLES!
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but
fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are
built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself
being the chief corner stone;"
Has the calling of prophets been taken away? They are listed right there
WITH the apostles as part of the foundation, are they not? If something is
true for one, in regards to it's availability today, ought not it be true of
the other?
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some,
evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 13 **TILL** we all come in the
unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect
man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
I ask you, my beloved brethren, pastors, elders and ministers in the true,
one and only Apostolic Oneness Acts 2:38 faith- is it not time again that
God's people be gathered together in one accord AGAIN at the foot of God's
holy mountain, seeking for God's perfect will and direction in what we now
have before us?
---
Am I right on, or way out in left field?
Are these pertinent questions for this hour, or merely the ramblings of a
religious psychopath gone totally off the deep end?
The table is open.
Poke and prod, and question away,
Just don't forget to STUDY AND PRAY!!!! ;-)
Leave no stone unturned, my brethren, everything here in this post I present
to you is open to question (which goes without saying, actually), therefore-
QUESTION EVERYTHING! That we, through seeking Him together, may find that
good and perfect will of God!
---
By Tom (don't light my fuse by adding to or taking away from the Word of God
or it's possible I'll go off like a sky-rocket, and you may not personally
enjoy the fireworks, but I promise not to do so in this thread) Raddatz!!! ;-)
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May God Bless you! From Tom Raddatz
http://www.corecom.net/~tomrpp/watchman.htm
"That I may know him;... Not as though I had already attained, either were
already perfect:... I count NOT myself to have apprehended:... I press
toward the mark for the prize..." -Phil. 3:10-14.
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