ONENESS ONENESS
Tom Raddatz (tomr@corecom.net)
Mon, 16 Sep 1996 14:50:12 -0800
On Thu, 12 Sep 1996 22:56:57 -0800, (mwb) wrote:
>Once again, I would be interested in whether Michael has consented to
>having his private conversation brought public ?
First off, I have not taken this ministry upon myself. After the letter was
completed, and before anyone else had a chance to read it, I offered it, and
the entire string of emails leading up to it, to my pastor for review,
comment, and approval. (Just as I have received approval for my home page,
and other evangelistic efforts on the net- which calling of evangelist has
also been officially recognized by my pastor. I make no claims for myself
other than what those in the ministry above me have bestowed upon me.)
Having received such approval, I sent it to one miscellaneous Bro. Michael.
, and several days later, I posted it to my home page.
My reasoning being were these- that the gifts and callings from God are
given "that the church may receive edifying." (1Co 14:5) Of which several
have already expressed such. Therefore, IF this thing be from God, then this
message neither belongs to me, or to "Bro. Michael," to hoard for ourselves,
or keep silent from God's people.
May I remind you of 1 Corinthians, written in rebuke to a certain named and
specified body, of which it was expected, and instructed that it was to be
read in all the churches. We find this concept in the exhortation- 1Ti 5:20
"Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear."
Let me remind you again also, that it is not out of disrespect or lack of
compassion that one must at times offer rebukes to his brother. It is, in
fact, at times our Christian DUTY, and RESPONSIBILITY, and that out of the
sincerest form of love, to rebuke when the situation warrants it-
Tit 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let
no man despise thee.
Tit 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore REBUKE THEM SHARPLY, that they may
be sound in the faith;
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and
repent.
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son
whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with
sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be
without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and
not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us,
and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto
the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened
us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be
partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to
be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable
fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. 12 WHEREFORE
LIFT UP THE HANDS WHICH HANG DOWN, AND THE FEEBLE KNEES; 13 AND MAKE
STRAIGHT PATHS FOR YOUR FEET, LEST THAT WHICH IS LAME BE TURNED OUT OF THE
WAY; BUT LET IT RATHER BE HEALED.
Although my writings, I am the very first to admit, have a loooooong way to
go in regards to Paul's maturity in his ability to perfectly blend meekness,
boldness, and authority (so much so that I AM ashamed and embarrassed to
even attempt or presume at a comparison)- you must admit, that my letter to
one anonymous "Bro. Michael" was MUCH more anonymous, and protective of this
brothers personal and public reputation, than Paul's letter to Corinth.
I wonder still what damage would have been done had the letter been written
to the individual you presumed it to have been. It would have been at THAT
point, from your hand, not mine, that anonymity might have been broken.
Thank God it was not, for such is not, and was never my intention- before
God I lie not.
For these reasons, I don't feel I have acted outside of God's will in this.
If I have offended in any "man's" customs, I must contend by the scriptures
that- Act 4:19 "...Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto
you more than unto God, judge ye. 20 For we cannot but speak the things
which we have seen and heard."
Now, if your concern and desire for anonymity are sincere, I don't feel you
should feel insulted if I should ask you in return- what then was your
motive in attempting to identify and expose the individual by name?
-----
>I have to be honest Tom, the message here that it seems you are
>trying to impart is "Watch me. If your leadership rejects it, it
>proves my point, and validates my message"
Well thank you for your honesty Bro. Bassett, and I mean that sincerely. And
thanks for the opportunity to clarify my intentions. I really thought I did
a better job of making my point a little clearer than you've implied when I
said-
>>But, it is true, there have been messages brought out the same way that were
>>false doctrines. The point being, we must all decide for ourselves the merit
>>of the message based on the message, not the outward appearance of whom the
>>message comes from (remember Balaam and his donkey?),
Which seems to be saying exactly what you were saying. But apparently I
didn't make myself clear enough. I apologize. Sometimes I write to much,
sometimes I write to little. You know what I mean? I have nothing to
contradict you on in what you said about this, and I agree with the points
you've made.
The reason I spoke rather heavily on the other side of the spectrum than you
have rightly addressed was because I felt I needed to quickly neutralize
your berating that I might fulfill and obey the scripture which says- Rom
14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
---
Now, Bro. Bassett (finally got the spelling right- sorry), I must say you
have disappointed me. I stated to you...
>>Please, I beg of you, humbly before God- offer me the scriptures that
declare, state, and >>support your stand in answer of the questions I've
asked of you...
and...
>> And if you are God's people, He will give you discernment to
>>recognize the difference between truth and error and provide you with the
>>scriptures to combat it, WILL HE NOT?
And you replied...
>Yes, He most certainly will.
I sincerely did think I made my desires, and expectations QUITE CLEAR of you
to...
"offer me the SCRIPTURES that declare, state, and support your stand in
answer of the questions I've asked of you"
And I really do think, by your response above, that you understood. Yet, in
reading over your responses on the "jewelry" question, I find you quoting a
few scripture, but I can't seem to find which one's you think "that declare,
state, and support your stand"
Please forgive me if I've overlooked something, or not understood some
passage you gave...
But, could you please point out for me just which scriptures in your
response that you feel clearly state(d), define(d), and/or declare(d) your
position without requiring the rhetoric?
I'm not saying commentary isn't helpful, or at times necessary, I just want
to know which of the scriptures you quoted you feel specifically say what
you believe without really needing any further interpretation- if there are
any. Because honestly, I must have missed something, and I do apologize for
that if I have.
Please, I do not mean any of this in guile. And I sincerely hope it is not
coming out that way, and I am afraid that it is. I am sincerely trying to
give you an open opportunity to present your points with out just jumping to
conclusions. It's just that I still fail to see where you're quoting
scriptures that make your points.
----
I don't want to go over every point of yours either. But please humor me a
few more moments, and allow me to share something with you...
>You gave several OT examples of people of God using Jewelry. However
>the bible neither implies nor states any of the following:
>1. The OT examples of scripture were morally perfect
>2. The OT examples of scripture were expected to abide in a spiritual
>relationship with God such as is possible since the Day of Pentecost,
>following the offering of the blood of Jesus Christ.
>3. Character, religious practice, or spiritual integrity can be
>measured by every character of the OT
>4. The Church derives its pattern from the human examples, such as
>Rebekah, or Sarah.
It is in statements like these that I'm not sure of the scriptures you use
to support your stand.
Let's look again at....
1Pe 3:3 "Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the
hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; 4 BUT LET IT BE
THE HIDDEN MAN OF THE HEART, in that which is not corruptible, even the
ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great
price. 5 FOR AFTER THIS MANNER in the old time the holy WOMEN (PLURAL) ALSO,
who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own
husbands: 6 EVEN AS SARA obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters
ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement."
Now, let's compare some of your words with this passage...
Scripture- "Whose adorning let it not be that outward... 4 BUT LET IT BE THE
HIDDEN MAN OF THE HEART... 5 FOR *AFTER THIS MANNER* in the old time THE
HOLY WOMEN (PLURAL) *ALSO*... adorned themselves... 6 *EVEN AS* SARA..."
And the words of yours, Bro. Bassett...
>the bible neither implies nor states ...3. Character, religious practice,
or spiritual integrity >can be measured by every character of the OT. 4. The
Church derives its pattern from the >human examples, such as Rebekah, or Sarah."
Excuse me? What then do the words "For AFTER THIS MANNER" and "the holy
women ALSO" and "EVEN AS Sara" mean to you then? Please explain.
Now, allow me to show you what your words appear to be doing from my
perspective. And again, please correct me if I'm wrong-
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God...
"AFTER THIS MANNER" and "the holy women ALSO" and "EVEN AS Sara"
"....ye hold the tradition of men, as...
>the bible neither implies nor states ...3. Character, religious practice,
or spiritual integrity >can be measured by every character of the OT. 4. The
Church derives its pattern from the >human examples, such as Rebekah, or Sarah."
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which
ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Now, if I'm incorrect in this, please, please, please, quote for me the
scriptures that state your stand. And I will surely, and quickly apologize
if I'm being at all presumptuous. I just don't know of any such scriptures
off hand that state what you are saying. And since, as you've stated below,
you appear to feel exactly as I do in the necessity of quoting the word, and
letting it speak for itself...
>As you know, the discussion which led man into darkness started with
>the same sentiment.
>"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the
>LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God
>said , ... ? ... ... For God doth know that in the day ye eat
>thereof, then your eyes shall be opened: - Gen 3: 5
Now, let's look again at your very words in this passage you have shared-
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which
the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said-
"AFTER THIS MANNER" and "the holy women ALSO" and "EVEN AS Sara"
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat... "AFTER THIS
MANNER" and "the holy women ALSO" and "EVEN AS Sara"
Gen 3:4 = And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that- "the bible neither implies nor states ...
The Church derives its pattern from the human examples, such as Rebekah, or
Sarah."
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it
was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, SHE
TOOK OF THE FRUIT THEREOF, AND DID EAT, AND GAVE ALSO UNTO HER HUSBAND WITH
HER; AND HE DID EAT.
Allow me to remind you that the woman Eve in Genesis is a type and
similitude of the church, and therefore this scene in Genesis represents the
church attempting to impose worldly doctrines on the man, Jesus Christ...
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman (representing the church) learn in silence with all
subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman (the church) to teach, nor to usurp
authority over the man (representing Jesus Christ), but to be in silence.
Therefore, let us..
1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If
any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all
that is in the world, THE LUST OF THE FLESH, AND THE LUST OF THE EYES, AND
THE PRIDE OF LIFE, IS NOT OF THE FATHER, BUT IS OF THE WORLD."
---
>Nothing personal Tom, but this is the pattern followed by all who want
>to sow discord. I don't think you do, so here is my advise:
>Most Apostolics are Bible students. They love the Bible. They have
>been taught that their pastors are not to be venerated, but rather are
>servants of God who labour in the word and in doctrine to help their
>relationship with God. They are more than willing to read and believe
>the scripture, but also know that the word of God is handled
>deceitfully by some, and value the ministry of God in helping and
>protecting them from wolves.
>Also, Apostolics have the blessing of the indwelling spirit of God,
>which usually means they can not only read and understand the Bible
>well, but they know the voice of God and can see a curve ball coming.
>So, if there is a point to be made, just let the word do the talking.
>say, "this is what I see... what about you ?" Don't go on about all
>this propaganda of how good men of God are not to be trusted.
This is good advice. Thank you. Now please demonstrate it's application for
me, if you would, in my above questions to you.
----
Another good point you brought out was- "4. We teach practices that we
believe are consistent with the scriptures in whole."
Well then, let's compare your words with "the scriptures in whole"...
>the bible neither implies nor states ...3. Character, religious practice,
or spiritual integrity >can be measured by every character of the OT. 4. The
Church derives its pattern from the >human examples, such as Rebekah, or Sarah."
Jam 5:10 "Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of
the Lord, FOR AN EXAMPLE of suffering affliction, and of patience.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of
things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report... 4 By faith
Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice... 5 By faith Enoch was
translated... 7 By faith Noah... prepared an ark... 8 By faith Abraham... 11
THROUGH FAITH ALSO SARA HERSELF RECEIVED STRENGTH... etc. etc....
-----
>2. There is no doubt that some teach and regard holiness standards
>pertaining to jewelry with an improper understanding. However it
>ought not to be thought that all do, or that the teaching of holiness
>standards regarding jewelry thrives in legalism. Men and women
>practice a separation unto the Lord by removing from their flesh all
>that is "of the flesh", and maximizing the honor that God has given
>through His adorning spirit as well as allowing the revelation of the
>inner spirit to exemplify what God has done and not what man has done
>to bring honor to himself.
This is quite the oration, Brother. I'm just curious which scripture says
all this.
Getting back to "the scriptures in whole"...
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the
world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21
(Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the
using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?"
1Co 3:21 "...all things are yours"
1Co 6:12 "ALL THINGS ARE LAWFUL unto me, but all things are not expedient:
all things are lawful for me, BUT I WILL NOT BE BROUGHT UNDER THE POWER of any."
Rom 14:14 "I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that THERE IS NOTHING
UNCLEAN OF ITSELF: BUT TO HIM THAT ESTEEMETH ANY THING TO BE UNCLEAN, TO
**HIM** it is unclean."
How do these scriptures fit in with your " scriptures in whole" stand? They
seem to fit very well indeed in mine, thank you very much.
-----
>3. Pertaining to how we ought to deal with this in those who do not
>choose to abandon the affectation of the flesh for some reason, let me
>paraphrase Bishop Lawson: "Whether or not a woman wear gold, let her
>do it with a meek and quiet spirit, adorned with the truly costly
>ornament of God's honor."
>4. We teach practices that we believe are consistent with the
>scriptures in whole. We do not teach them as divine law. We see
>considerable variation in practice, but find that personal
>consecration does come with a means of expression. This is valuable,
>and is not inherently hypocrisy. Hypocrisy comes with a false
>representation of the inner man.
Now, right here, FINALLY we are beginning to agree. If this is truly what
you believe, then our differences, in this at least and in terms of points
of contentions, are- NOTHING!
In fact this appears to be EXACTLY how I summed up the subject in the letter
to Bro. Michael...
"What I want you to see is- I can accept people as brothers who feel as you
do about these things, but ONLY if they keep them between them and God- AND
NOT AT ALL when they start preaching them as if they were God breathed
doctrine and essential for salvation!"
Rom 14:1 "Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful
disputations. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who
is weak, eateth herbs. 3 LET NOT HIM THAT EATETH DESPISE HIM THAT EATETH
NOT; AND LET NOT HIM WHICH EATETH NOT JUDGE HIM THAT EATETH: FOR GOD HATH
RECEIVED HIM. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own
master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able
to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another
esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that
regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth,
eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the
Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7 For none of us liveth to
himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto
the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live
therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ both died,
and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10
BUT WHY DOST THOU JUDGE THY BROTHER? OR WHY DOST THOU SET AT NOUGHT THY
BROTHER? FOR WE SHALL ALL STAND BEFORE THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST."
This passage above, is what I was trying to say when I told Bro. Michael-
>I'll tell you what- I'll teach and base my ordinances of holiness standards
on the >exhortations expressed in such passages as- 1 Cor. 13:4-7; Matt.
5:3-7:27; Gal. 5:22-24; >Phi 4:8; and Col. 3:1-25, and rather than "put-off"
such things as my modest gold >wedding band, I'll "put-off" such things as
are mentioned in scriptures like- 1 Cor. 6:9->10; and Gal. 5:19-21.
>Meanwhile, you go ahead and raise your holiness standards as being seen in
the clothes >you wear, or don't wear, in not allowing women into the
ministry, and in not allowing >remarriages no matter the situation, and the
such like.
>And then, let's just wait and see which one of us makes the rapture.
Maybe I didn't say it clear enough, maybe I should have added more words.
But MAYBE, you should have listened to the way I SUMMED UP WHAT I WAS
SAYING. Let me repeat-
"What I want you to see is- I can accept people as brothers who feel as you
do about these things, but ONLY if they keep them between them and God- AND
NOT AT ALL when they start preaching them as if they were God breathed
doctrine and essential for salvation!"
And now you're saying-
>...Whether or not a woman wear gold, let her
>do it with a meek and quiet spirit, adorned with the truly costly
>ornament of God's honor."
>...We do not teach them as divine law. We see
>considerable variation in practice, but find that personal
>consecration does come with a means of expression.
I don't have any contradiction with these statements.
But then I have to ask- why then have the local UPCI assemblies cut us off
from fellowship with them? Or, are they of the opinion that we have cut them
off? Maybe this is just one great big cruel misunderstanding between we
Oneness brothers here on the Kenai Peninsula of this great state of Alaska!
----
Next, you asked-
>There are many voices today claiming that they have brought a wave of
>the refreshing and new. What exactly are *you* saying ?
I thought I made myself fairly clear when I said...
>>Please, I beg of you, humbly before God- offer me the scriptures that
declare, state, and
>>support your stand in answer of the questions I've asked of you, I beg of
you, AND
>>I'LL JOIN YOUR ORGANIZATION TOMORROW! THAT'S A PROMISE!
>>But until then, I'VE GOT STANDARDS TOO. And they say- DON'T ADD TO OR
>>TAKE AWAY FROM THE WORD OF GOD.
>>Therefore, my hands are tied. I cannot serve two masters. There is only
one banner I see
>>in the scriptures that we are to rally behind, and around, and pledge
allegiance to. Is this
>>wrong to you too? Or did the UPC ever die for you?
>>I have ONE master, He's the one who bought me with a great price, and His
name is >>one-
>>Jesus!
----
And now you have posted this message-
>With that, I am pretty much off this thread or public communication on
>this subject until further prayer. I see a considerable danger here,
>and do not want to cause anyone to stumble. So if I do not reply,
>please remember this.
And AGAIN I would like to remind you of our conversation-
>>Please, I beg of you, humbly before God- offer me the scriptures that
declare, state, and
>>support your stand in answer of the questions I've asked of you...
and...
>> And if you are God's people, He will give you discernment to
>>recognize the difference between truth and error and provide you with the
>>scriptures to combat it, WILL HE NOT?
And you replied...
>Yes, He most certainly will.
Have you not then exposed, by this action the real reason for your
withdrawal- to those who have ears to hear?
Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou
shalt be condemned.
Rom 13:3 For rulers ARE NOT A TERROR TO GOOD WORKS, BUT TO THE EVIL. Wilt
thou then not be afraid of the power? ***DO THAT WHICH IS GOOD, AND THOU
SHALT HAVE PRAISE*** of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God ***TO THEE
FOR GOOD***. BUT IF THOU DO THAT WHICH IS EVIL, BE AFRAID; for he beareth
not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, A REVENGER TO EXECUTE
WRATH UPON HIM THAT DOETH EVIL.
------
Now, since you have opted to bow out of this conversation, I WILL AND DO
respect that. I actually feel you are very right in this choice you have
made, in that I don't feel you are at a level to speak for your entire
organization, and I do sincerely respect your wisdom in recognizing that,
and I also do very much commend you for it. And therefore I will, and that
respectfully, not expect a reply from you.
But I will still be waiting to hear someone from your organization's
specific SCRIPTURALLY STATED ANSWERS to the other questions I have
specifically asked.
Namely- the ones about "governments" and hierarchy, and leadership. Those
are very important issues in my mind. May I request of you to refer these
correspondences, and my questions up to your elders, and possibly even bring
these things up to the "apostles" of your organization which have been
mentioned in this thread? I am calling for your organization to give an
account of itself.
1Pe 3:15 ...be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a
reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
If your organization is unwilling, or unable to give an account for any
reason - at least you now know, as was asked, what are some of the MAJOR
points of contention that are still causing disunity and division among the
One Lord, one God, one faith, one baptism body of Jesus Christ.
You all may be asking yourselves, who is this that has such nerve as to
stand up to the mighty United Pentecostal Church, Inc.! The largest Oneness
Apostolic organization in the world! Well, I would be inclined to ask you
right back- what nerve have you to stand up to the GREAT AND ALMIGHTY GOD,
and His word in adding and subtracting from HIS concepts, precepts and
commandments?
But that wouldn't necessarily answer the question, would it. So I'll tell
you plainly why I have such nerve- we are brethren! We are members of one
body! We are members, therefore, one of another!
If there are factions, and man-made traditions in my body, who am I, or any
of us, to have the nerve to presume to stand up to others such as Rome, and
Protestantism to offer to take the traditions and man-made isms, and shisms
out of their bodies? If I/we don't have the nerve to stand up to our own
self and cleanse ourselves from ALL iniquity, what nerve could I/we ever
hope to have to stand up to anyone elses? If we can't keep the commandments
of God intact, and entire, what nerve have we to expect others to do so, in
any thing great or small?
Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but
considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to
thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam
is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine
own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy
brother's eye.
1 Cor. 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do
not ye judge them that are within?
By Tom (not afraid to give or receive a spanking when it's due) Raddatz
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May God Bless you! From Tom Raddatz
http://www.corecom.net/~tomrpp/watchman.htm
"That I may know him;... Not as though I had already attained, either were
already perfect:... I count NOT myself to have apprehended:... I press
toward the mark for the prize..." -Phil. 3:10-14.
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