How Should We Relate to Trinitarians (LONG Article Included)

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On Sat, 7 Oct 1995 08:17:56 -0500, you wrote:

>You are the victim of great deception.  The gates of hell did not prevail
>against the true Church.  Your RCC (note that I said "Your" right there),
>has never been the true Church, nor have her denominations.

F. Vandenburg's suggestion was that "we owe the trinitarians", based
on the premise that we received something from trinitarians. I already
responded to this but ought to add this:

As I read the Bible, they owe Apostolics an awful lot. Seems to me
that the true chruch always WAS oneness, from the moment it came from
the womb. The fact that they say the word "church" depends upon words
that were first used by Oneness Apostolics.

If they have a PRETENSE of religion, they got the foundations from the
Ancient "Champions of Oneness" (borrowing from Chalfant's title).

>We sing it like this now: 
>
>"We're not children of Azuza street 
>we've got more power than they did back then, 
>we're not children of Azuza street cause
>we're oneness and were not trin." 
> (sung to the tune of one of the UPC's
>great "mini-god" Sodomite songwriters tunes).

Given the displayed penchant for bitterness and rumor mongering, I'll
chuckle along with you. However, detachment from reality seems to have
led to a distortion in thinking. The fact is, virtually ALL of the
present day Apostolic movement has organizational, historical  and
experiential roots in the Tulsa, Oka and Los Angeles phenomenon.

>You have hit upon one of the greatest foundational causes of the decent
>into whoredom of so much of the UPC, and that is the belief that the 
>gates of hell prevailed against the true Church until Azuza Street.

One can be assured that there was a great focus and momentum gained in
these unique events. The fact is, the twentieth century church is a
more powerful church and a greater church than ever before in history.
Isolation from the life of that church does allow misconceptions. This
does not indicate that the gates of hell ever prevailed against the
church, however.

>I recommend you read some of Dr. Marvin Arnolds history books and find
>out what really happened.

We appreciate Dr. Arnold's work, but find that it is speculative in
many cases. His recognition that Pentecost did not begin at Azuza
street is pretty well shared by the church as a whole. We thank him
for what part he has played in extending that awareness. However, very
little case can be made for certainty regarding various 8th through 13
century peoples classified as heretical by the RCC. We may speculate
regarding the exact spiritual identity of the Manicheans, and
Paulacians. 

In my opinion, Rev. Arnold has not proven these matters conclusively.
I join him in the hopeful speculation that these granulaes of
historical data do point to a powerful Apostolic presence during the
early centuries. I agree that European history is FAR from showing
absolute Catholic domination. However, we just do not have the facts
to paint a conclusive picture of the faith and practices of those who
opposed the Romans.

With a certainty, the 16-19th centuries did not have a highly notable
presence of Apostolics, but this certainly does not mean that the fire
died. The Kentucky revivals occurred among trinitarians, and people of
unspecified godhead doctrine. There is very little evidence in the US
of am explicity Oneness christian movement, which also had the "other
goods". It is my opinion that Benjerman Franklin and William Penn, and
others indicate a strong disposition toward Bible truth and away from
tradition, but they do not appear to have been apostolic. Yes, there
were people in the swaps and hills (maybe even in some cities) who
were isolationist and received spirit and truth by the providence of
God.

Trinitarian people, such as you were, do get the Spirit of God today,
as they did then. Seeing the hunger of the heart among the people of
the world in this last day, God has raised up a mighty church. It has
its problems, but it is engaged in teaching the Bible truth regarding
the place of Jesus name in baptism, and concerning the identity of
Jesus Christ.

We are left with the fact that the present day Apostolic church is
better documented and more extentensive than every before in history.

Perhaps some are wont to "wish" they lived at some other time in
history. We notice that freedom of speech and other constitutionally
granted facets of life (often taken for granted) has done much to
extend both the space for repentance of the rebel, and 

The fact is, it is YOU who say that the gates of hell prevail against
the church in bringing condemnation against all that does not agree
with a parochial and self-centered view of the church and the
mentalites which you believe it should maintain, playing the role of a
"wanna-be" prophet.

We would ask you exactly HOW LARGE the church is today, once you have
shaved off all that you condemn. You can't have it both ways. Either
we are whores, or the RCC is whores, but pal, you ain't the pope.

--
The Whole Gospel to the Whole World    -   Life Tabernacle UPC
"Preaching the Kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ,
with all confidence, no man forbidding ... " - Acts 28:31