A common question

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On Wed, 2 Oct 1996 08:51:08 +0700, you wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>	There is a question that I've been hearing and being asked for
>almost three months now both in the church as well as some of my other
>friends. "Did Jesus have a human spirit >besides the Holy Ghost?" Personally 
>l didn't even think that the question was correctly
>phrased. The situation seemed pretty clear to me. Being God incarnated in
>the flesh, the only Spirit residing in Him was the Holy Ghost and no other
>spirits. 


While thinking about this, I remembered a controversy from back in
November of last year. I think the issue is related to the question of
the WILL of Jesus Christ, and whether there was a REAL distinction
between the personal human will of the Son and the will of the Father.

It IS a different subject, but I felt to repost this, before
re-examining the Nestorian controversy.

Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 18:42:41 GMT

Regarding the "will of Jesus Christ". There has been some discussion
on this matter. It is important, as it goes beyond theology, so far as
we must intellectually know Jesus, to fully understand our
relationship with God.

* We have on one hand this:

1. There is a divine will and a human will, that is two wills.

Supplimenting that starting point:

a. Otherwise the Sonship would me meaningless. Jesus is COMPLETELY
human, and therefor in all ways deals with temptation as we do. We are
able to emulate him in his humanity in our submission to the word. He
mediates as high priest owing partly to the intimatte knowledge which
he has of our trial.

b. Humanity has will. Jesus has humanity. With or without the presence
of deity, Jesus has will. God dwells in Jesus. Thus, two wills are at
odds in him. Gethsemene shows the surrender of one will to another.

* We have on the other hand this:

2. Jesus is God incarnate. Jesus does the will of God. Jesus is not
distinguished from God. The will of God is the will of Jesus.

To support this:

a. God is One. Manifest in the flesh, He is still One. We reject the
used of the term person in distinguishing the manifestation of God in
the Son, insofar as we believe in inherently implies more that the
greek "persona" or face which would be acceptable. 

b. Will is a characteristic of identity not nature. Divine and human
nature dwell in Jesus, but a man is known according the the abundance
of his words. A person's will is demonstrated in the manner in which
he presides over the INFLUENCES which derive from his nature. Humanity
provides influences (will to survive, instunctual appetite, and, a
desire for self-prominence, or esteem), but the will determines how
those influences will be administrated, and prioritized, so as to
manifest a single, will, prersonality, displaying the  identity.

IN a sense, there is a question of semantics. But here is a pitfall.
We wish be faithful and to believe then say God is one. That is the
will of God, let it be our will.

In Jesus, any unique identity of the Son is hidden. This is not a
moot, or superfluous point. IN Matt 11:27, this remaining mystery of
Godliness is highlighted. Do you desire to be hidden in Jesus, as
Jesus his in God? For Him to be known through us, our identity must
blend with His letting Him predominate, and our will, must give way to
His will. When this has happened, we will be truely like Jesus.

But still a difference will remain. In gethsemene, Jesus did not
struggle with sin. Some have likened Gethsemene to repentance. May I
point out that we come to the cross convicted, and as sinners? Jesus
rather went to the cross compelled by His love for us, and the joy of
anticipating the results (YOU AND ME!). We face death at the cross,
and it is a sinles death, but there we must face the blood, where
there is a terrible sacrifce for sins, and unless we have laid hands
on that lamb, and determined that it was us who was to die, there is
no remission of sins, no completing of the covenental requirements. We
go to calvary to witness HIS death, not ours, and our repentance is
the summary result of conviction of sin.

In Gethsemene, Jesus rather set down his personal glory, emptied
himself of deity and all remaining esteem, and accepted the
unimaginable, to be loaded with unjust burdens, even the condemation
of every vile, and wicked thought, ever murderous blow, ever coniving
lie ever spoken, or which ever would be spoken. In saying the words
"nevertheless not my will, but thine", the main focus is not on the
"will", but on the WHO! Jesus reminds us in this

"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O
Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:  And thou shalt love the Lord
thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy
mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment."  -
Mark 12:29

To cause humanity to sumbit in the presence of deity, is the one
truth, we so greatly complicate. It is a many faceted truth, but we
cannot loose tract of this FIRST COMMANDMENT. 

In Jesus Christ, we see the will of God, and no other will. Yes, this
issue is semantical in nature, like all other communucation.  But will
is an attribute of identity and not nature.

Additional Historical background:
Nestorius was condemned for dividing the person of Christ while
maintaining that the two natures were unique to the extent of
possessing characteristics of identity. Insofar as he represents
Oneness or perhaps Sabellianism in the 5th century, we rarely deal
with the other side of the coin.

To flesh this out, the following is a repost of an earlier answer.

Thanks to Bro. F. Vandenburg, of Moncton, NB, Ca for providing the
frame for this response:

>As far as Jesus and the number of wills I think this will make sense.

>1. Human's have a will. (Yielding our will to God's will is implicit in repentence.)
>2. Jesus was fully human.
>3. Therefore Jesus as a man had a human will.

I concurred that Jesus had the capacity for self-will. 

It is my opinion, repeated here since it was evidently not made clear,
that we use an irrational idea of will when dealing with  this
subject. We imagine will, as it were, an organ-like "thing", being
implanted and existing whether or not a voluntary action is ever
commissioned.

>a. God has a will (this is the will we yield to in repentence)
>b. Jesus was fully God.
>c. Therefore Jesus had a divine will.

If God had a "nose" lets say, and Jesus had a nose, then you would
have to say "God has two noses". Simple - a profound defense of the
divinity of Christ - Assuming a divine nose (And despite humor, I do
not intend blasphemy)

(ref John's gospel)
Now, of course God does not have a nose, except that which emerges in
this world in Jesus. The thought that everything in this world is a
"replication" of a spiritual reality, is Socratic and in error. In
fact, things are expressed in this "dimension" by extension and not
replication, thus the logos was from the beginning (1:1), and IS God
as much as he cannot be without his glory effecting all that exists.
But the fleshly nose, came as the logos became flesh. (1:14)

So, we ask about will? What IS will? Is it an organ? We speak of free
will. Is nonfree-will another kind of organ or a diseased organ ? Is
it an organ which does not function? Did Jesus not express "free-will"
in our normal vernacular, when he went to the cross?

 In the realm of human decision, there are compelling forces. The
motive of survival is certainly one of these, and there are more. But
we could distinguish WILL as (1) that which is compelling, and (2)
that which is emotive in accommodating and enacting some compelling
motives, and eliminating or abandoning others. 

Biblically, there is a HEART, or seat of consciousness. If there is a
human organ, of sorts which I will recognize, it is the HEART. Mental,
emotional, and volitional conflicts are decided in the HEART. But one
could argue, AND I WILL, that the will to which Jesus referred does
not refer to an organ, but to a summary disposition of the HEART, and
the inevitable result of kinetic activity. 

Thus, to recognize two "wills" existing at any one time, requires that
Jesus be separated from God, which .... well, whatever you believe
about Jesus will determine that.

IN the HEART of Jesus, we find ONLY the Word of God prevailing. That
was my point. 

Will, after all, can be stated, it can be recorded, and it can be
reversed. If so, what is the will? Is it the bound sacrifice, or the
delivery of that sacrifice to an altar?

Philosophically, I would have to agree with you all, but
philosophically, I would be a trinitarian. Trust me. However,
Spiritually and Biblically, I am Oneness from east to west.

>This adds up to two wills for me: to deny the human will leaves God wearing a man costume, to deny the divine 
> will leaves Jesus as a man.Neither is acceptable when we look at
> Scripture. This does not lead to a multiplicity of persons in the
> Godhead since one of the wills is Human.

Hehe. Simple math, man! But you gotta nail down those things you're
counting.

The Whole Gospel to the Whole World    -   Life Tabernacle UPC
"Preaching the Kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern
the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding ... " -
Acts 28:31

The Whole Gospel to the Whole World    
Life Tabernacle UPC - Milford, CT. 
"Preaching the Kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern
the Lord Jesus Christ,
with all confidence, no man forbidding ... " - Acts 28:31