Apostolic web site

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On Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:33:51 +0200, you wrote:

>I never meant to put these people down for what they believe, for they =
do
>believe in truth and I would never tare down truth. I just find the =
things I
>have mentioned in my earlier post questionable.=20

Sure, and thats why you are questioning them. :)

>What is the difference of
>calling the pope "Holy Father" or calling this guy "Holy Apostolic
>Blessedness".=20

Its a title of respect. Actually there is quite a bit of difference.
Some of us would do very well to adapt a few formalities in relating
to and honoring elders, I think -

I think a title such as Bishop is perhaps a little better <God knows,
there is no smiley face designed suitably to express the extent of
understatement I want to :->, but it is really important to understand
the movement from which some of these men come and in which they work.
The title Bishop was literally worn out. In some circles virtually
every preacher was using the title.

Now in that culture, were so LITTLE respect cam "naturally", the
matter was inherently of great importance.

Bear this in mind: to have heard the gospel is a BLESSING, the vessel
that carried is, in its sincere and pure power, is himself a BLESSING
to you. The messenger is a gift of GOD. Many of us stumble because we
eventually think we have come upon "common" information, and we begin
to treat it and those of God's ministry commonly. This damages our
conscience..

The irony is that I believe the same is happening there as they tip
the boat the OTHER way :)

>These titles to me seem to exalt the person
>over the other saints in the congregation....I'm not so sure that that =
is
>right. Before God we are all alike and noone is better than the other.=20

We white Americans and Europeans tend to make this a BIG number ONE
issue. There is something built into us that isn''t so good also -
that is the desire for the expression of equality. Please notice
Paul's writing. The same man who stated this truth was disliked and
disregarded, often by the churches. He did not expect to see his flesh
treated fairly. But, as some of these brethren, he rebuked and
required respect for the sake of those souls who would hear from God
through him, if they would respect his office and calling (which
means, in the end, respecting him ... and yes, honoring him about
other influences).

>The bible says "Give honor to whom honor is due" but that honor must be =
earned
>and is not given by heritage or marriage into a family.=20

That is true, but Paul was discussing the issue of people who were
hard to lead and pastor with his "son in the gospel" and he said "let
no man despise your youth". Evidently there is a tendancy for people
place the measure of respect a lot higher than God does in some
matters. That is, they withold their submission for vain reasons,
claiming that the elder did not measure up in some way, so as to avoid
being under rule of the Holy Ghost. I've seen it. :)

>Maybe I was so shocked, because this whole deal reminded me of the =
Catholic Church with
>their titles. About the "Foremost authority"....does that make our =
ministers
>"the utmost authority" :) (sorry about that one).=20

No, thats a good point.. and it needs dealing with ... In fact, I
don't think they even consider us to be saved. Now, that would bother
me, IF God was leading me to deal with it, but at this time, he has
only given me to understand it. I feel that is an error, but I do not
feel, strangely enough, it is a serious error for them. It would be
for me though. Maybe thats not clear - but its the best I can do in a
few minutes.


>What I'm trying to say is that he is not the Foremost authority....he is=
 one of=20
> many authorities on  the bible. And I am sure there are many in his=20
> congregation that could call themselves an authority.=20
> Again, what I am saying to call oneself the "foremost authority" is to =
exalt=20
> oneself over the others saying "I am more
>of an authority than you are".=20

Well, his preaching (at least his Dad's and Bishop Shelton's
afterwards) is, quite honestly, quite a lot honestly a lot clearer and
more powerful than a lot of men that seem to be accepted.

Of course, I think their evangelism is pretty mych dead, though I may
be wrong, and so far as I know, if we arent saved (in their model),
there are virtually no white people saved.  :) <--- you have to
remember these little smileys... they are real important sometimes.=20

See this from God's perspective. God wants to reach the world with the
message of saving truth. Lots of people get it and then sit on it for
a lifetime. It is almost a given that "we" will never do a really
effective work in many areas (though we desire to).. Here is someone
preaching the gospel. He reaches a culture very different than ours.
He admonishes that the truth be held in the highest regard. He=20

Again the "formost authority thing" as someone mentioned, is a deal
(like a trademark), that goes way back to S.C. Shelton. Its
colloquial. It works in their circles. Compared to the zillions of
"bishops" that people who they reach are hearing, the title is valid.=20

I see it is just very difficult for people to tunnel back in their
minds to the situation these people are in. NOT THAT I AM ANY MORE
INCLINED TO DO THE SAME THINGS than YOU ARE. But, when talking about
the power of God and the move of God, I have found it wise to be very
careful.

> And I have to agree with Sis. Laurie on this
>deal. To me it does sound dangerous to exalt oneself in such a way, =
cause
>where does that leave meekness, humility? Doris

You and I can have as much of that as we want - don't worry ! :)

btw... the location of the Philadelphia church was "Apostolic Square",
until recently. Perhaps they have sold the original location.. These
people did have a very substantial work there and in other cities..

As you may know, Bishop Smallwood Williams has often sat on the
platform at conferences with Bishop N.A. Urshan. Williams went to
Washington under Lawson, quite a while ago and (someone correct me if
I am wrong) built a fine organization of the Bibleway Apostolic
Church.

These governments are not modified presbyterian governments such as
the UPC, and are, from our perspective, personality based. However, it
is my conviction that governments are not a given in the Bible, and
God has and will deal with many kinds of organization. We have our
weaknesses too. As someone said, the beam is not always easier to see
than a mote...

But to summarize, I also see the problems and excesses. HoweverI
believe they come in understandable response to historical problems.
We have had people who were very difficult to work with because they
had been "touched" by S.C. Johnson's "other doctrines". Hence we learn
the lesson that we should be, as you say, humble servants, receiving
ONLY that promotion that "cometh from the Lord".

-mwb