The Apostolic Dialogue With Catholics 3

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Bill Clifton wrote:

> Bro. Starcher, I wonder why you are so focused on the universal
> acceptance of
> people that do not share the same beliefs.

Greetings Brother Clifton!  Its always good to dialogue with you!


First, I  don't recall any advocacy of "universal acceptance" of all
Christian beliefs in my posts.  As I precede with my posts I hope to
make it clear that dialogue does not require the blind acceptance of the
beliefs of other Christians but a sincere effort at understanding their
beliefs and an acknowledgment of their  similarities with my Apostolic
faith.  During a recent seminar I attended in Indiana I was quite
critical of the faith of the Lutherans, Episcopalians, Catholics, and
United Methodists who attended, especially their emphasis upon the
sacrament of the Lord's Supper.  At the same time I acknowledged the
commonalties of the Christian faith we shared, i.e. seeking to base our
faith on the Bible, seeking to serve Jesus Christ, prayer, et.al.  At
the end of the seminar they all knew I was an Apostolic Pentecostal who
baptized in Jesus Name, had received the baptism in the Holy Spirit with
the sign in speaking in tongues, and did not embrace the  doctrine of
the Trinity.  I had the opportunity to share my faith because I gave
them the opportunity to share their faith without fear of condemnation. 
This is what dialogue is about!  And if we Apostolics really believe in
the truthfulness of our faith we will grant God time to give the
increase!

I am  "focused" on the relationship of Apostolics to other Christians
because it is a subject which, in my opinion, has not been sufficiently
addressed in Apostolic circles.  Apostolics normally assign all other
Christians to hell or  offer some sort of future dispensation of God's
grace which could account for their salvation.  These are very
simplistic answers to a very important questions and they just don't
resonate with me or with a lot of other Apostolics I am in conversation
with.



> Just because people call themselves Apostolic does not mean they are
> either....there is a Gay Pentecostal Assmebly (they claim to be
> oneness). I do
> not see this as an Apostolic Church, but another attempt by the enemy
> to attack
> the church. Many others that I have seen look more Charismatic than
> Pentecostal.

This is Apostolic diversity Brother Clifton!  How do we account for this
diversity?   Is it reasonable to say that all Apostolics who do not
agree with our individualized version of Apostolic theology are being
deceived by Satan and lost?  What is the complete corpus of Apostolic
beliefs that all true Apostolics adhere to?  The problem is that there
has never been an agreement on a complete corpus of beliefs. The belief
that there must be uniformity in belief has let to innumerable schisms
in the Apostolic movement.  Jesus is not pleased!  His prayer is that we
may all be one!


> You see Bro. the bottom line is that every post you submit seems to
> have one
> basic underlying theme...the UPCI is wrong in its not joining the AWCF
> of by not
> accepting all "Christians" as saved. 

I've submitted a lot of posts which do not have this theme.  Also, could
you please quote from a post I have made which says "all Christians are
saved"?  I have said that the Bible teaches a universalism of hope,
salvation is available to all, not a universalism of salvation, all will
be saved.  

I do believe that the UPCI is wrong for not joining the AWCF.  But,
after having read  Bishop Smith's epistle, I can't help but wonder if
the AWCF is drifting toward the separation  and isolation which
characterizes the UPCI.  Perhaps the UPCI is winning the AWCF to its
position!


Well bro. it is time to
> understand that
> some things will probably not change and focus on matters other than
> the
> eucanism of the Apostolic Faith in general and the UPCI in particular.

Recently I spoke with a trinitarian Pentecostal theologian who was
involved in an ecumenical discussion with Bro.J.L. Hall and Bro. Nathan
Urshan.  Such events don't get publicized in the UPCI but they do occur.
Have you ever attended a Society for Pentecostal Studies meeting where
members of the UPCI are present?  They seem quite interested in the
faith of others.  Interest in Apostolic ecumenism is not waning but is
increasing!  I hope to generate a lot more discussion Brother Clifton. 
Please, if you really think i am on the wrong track help me find some
more satisfying answers for the ecumenical questions Apostolics are
answering.


> The
> following two passages show some of the unity in the early church....
> 
> Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and
> fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.


> Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of
> peace.
> Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in
> one hope of
> your calling;
> Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
> Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all,
> and in you
> all.
> 
> Lots of "ones" there and I do not see how there are many versions of
> one
> faith....


The problem with your usage of these passages is that you assume that
they refer to a complete body of systematic theology which is to be
believed and embraced by all.  Where is this systematic theology Brother
Clifton?  If it exists, why don't Apostolics evidence this unity in
their movement?  In my 26 years as an Apostolic  I have heard these
Scriptures cited numerous times to support separation from other
Christians on the basis of their doctrinal error.  Yet I see no
Apostolic consensus as to what this one pure doctrinal faith is.  Its
kinda like  this,"We all know it doesn't exist but we have to believe it
any way to justify our faith".

Let me give you my interpretation of these passages.  The Apostolic
doctrine  is not a complete body of systematic theology but a person
Jesus Christ.  The Apostolic faith is not a complete systematic theology
but faith (trust) placed in this person.  The content of the Apostolic
doctrine and the Apostolic faith is found in the witness to Jesus Christ
contained in Holy Scripture. The purpose of Holy Scripture is not to
present an intellectually satisfying systematic theology but to lead all
to an encounter with the risen savior Jesus Christ.  Was this not the
locus of the Apostltles doctrine in the many proclamations of the Gospel
in the book of Acts?  They proclaimed one Lord, one faith, one baptism
as they witnessed to their one Lord Jesus Christ!  And there were many
different versions of this "one faith" in the New Testament.  They are
called the Gospels, Acts, Epistles, etc. each written by authors with
their own unique theological emphasis and witness to Jesus Christ. 

Finally, Brother Clifton, other Christians do share this one faith with
me.  They acknowledge Jesus as Lord, pray, engage in ministry, and
attempt to live Christian lives.  What is wrong with recognizing the
faith directed toward Christ they possess and utilizing it as a
springboard to discuss the Apostolic faith?


Once again, I always enjoy sharing my faith with you Brother Clifton. 
Hope I didn't consume all of your lunch hour or create needless anxiety!


God Bless you Brother Clifton!

Steve