The Apostolic Dialogue With Catholics 3

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Bill Clifton wrote (about Apostolic diversity):

> I do see your point, but my question is why is it so important that
> every
> "Apostolic" be part of the one big group (AWCF). I understand the
> diversity and
> I know that in all groups there are those on the edge of not bring
> part of the
> group. Your primary idea seems to be that the more conservative and
> the more
> "holiness" churches and groups ae wrong because they stand firm on
> their
> beliefs.

I really feel that a united Apostolic movement would be a more effective
witness to Jesus Christ both to other Christians and to the lost.  The
truth of the Apostolic message is confirmed not only by its
correspondence to the teachings of Holy Scripture but by the lives of
Apostolics.  Those seeking to know Jesus in an Apostolic way are all to
often disillusioned not by the Apostolic experience of Jesus nor
Apostolic doctrines but by the attitudes Apostolics have toward other
Apostolics and other Christians with whom they disagree.  Striving for
Apostolic unity by being tolerant of Apostolic and Christian diversity
would go a long way toward giving the Apostolic movement more
credibility.  

I do not believe conservative and "holiness" Apostolics are wrong
because they stand firm in their beliefs. I do not believe that any
Apostolic should be required to compromise their holiness standards or
their proclamation of the Apostolic Gospel in a blind quest for unity. 
What I am concerned about is the almost complete refusal of these
Apostolics to dialogue with other Apostolics and other Christians. 
Because these Apostolics have refused to engage in a dialogue and to
seek an understanding of the faith of others they all to often have only
shallow and stereotypical  understandings of the faith of others.  Once
again, the propagation of misinformation, even if it is unintentional,
does not give the Apostolic faith the credibility it deserves.  As I
proceed in my examination of Bishop Smith's epistle I will be pointing
out the many stereotypes of Catholicism he possesses and proclaims as
truth.

>  We must be firm on our beliefs.

I agree with you Brother Clifton!  We must be firm in our beliefs.  This
means proclaiming the Acts 2:38 message, baptizing in Jesus name,
teaching of the revelation of God in Christ.  Those who have not been
baptized in Jesus name should be rebaptized as they become part of the
Apostolic Church.  Being in dialogue with other Christians doesn't mean
we cannot be firm.  It does mean that we should understand the faith of
others, acknowledge our similarities, and offer informed criticism.

>  Bro. you
> ignored that
> very question (about the salvation of other Christians) from Bro. Shaw and myself during your initial
> eucaminical series.
> You have not stated your position in black and white, you always leave
> grey
> areas.

I believe I have answered the question about whether other Christians
are saved several times in this forum.  During several conversations I
have made the comment that just because a question is not answered in
the way one desires does not mean it is not answered.  I do not believe
biblical salvation is a state at which one arrives at through the
mechanical obedience to a formula  such as John 3:16 or Acts 2:38. 
Salvation is a dynamic relationship initiated by God in Jesus Christ,
received through faith in Jesus Christ, and lived in the world.  God's
salvation is experienced by men as they participate in the Reign,
kingdom, of God through faith and faith acts, i.e. Repentance, Water
Baptism, Spirit Baptism, living a life of discipleship.  All who respond
to God's calling in Jesus Christ are participating in God's Kingdom and
experiencing God's salvation. Full salvation awaits the eschaton.  It is
then that God will separate the wheat from the tares and  judge the
works (salvation) of men.  

> why is it wrong....I have visited (or talked to trusted brothers that
> have
> visited a few churches) that are affiliated in some manner with the
> AWCF. The 2
> I visited and a few others were Charismatic....not Apostolic. In fact
> the pastor
> of one even mentioned that baptismal formula is not really that
> important - and
> this is not what I call Apostolic.

How can you help them understand the importance of baptism if you refuse
to dialogue and fellowship with them Brother Clifton?  They need to see
the truth of your faith demonstrated in your life and not confined to a
mere intellectual argument. 


> I still feel that you are almost searching for justification for
> accepting
> non-Apostolics.

I am trying to understand the reality of Apostolic and Christian
diversity as it exists in the world.  I need my faith to correspond to
lived reality.

 
> Almost 2000 years ago there was one systematic theology.

Brother Clifton, this is a statement which cannot be proven. It is
better to say there is one canonical witness to Jesus Christ found in
Holy Scripture.  Within this witness there is diversity.  If not, why
don't all Apostolics interpret Holy Scriptures the same?

 Then came the
> false
> teaching that the Lord warned of....now we have some truth and some of
> the
> leftovers. 

There is a lot of false teaching in Christendom today.  The problem is
that the falling away from the faith described in the New Testament
should not be identified with all of the doctrinal wars of the twentieth
century.  I will be commenting on this "falling away" in a forth coming
post.


> I too have this issue, I know many "Christians" that are better people
> than some
> of the "Apostolics" I know. They are better witnesses, do more for
> others....but
> being good is not enough - remember the rich young man, being good was
> not
> enough. Remember Corneilus, being good and even faithful to God was
> not
> enough....so if as you say it is a convo starter then we agree!

Everyone has to start somewhere don't they!  I think the difference
between me and you is that I call God's work in the lives of men,
whatever it might be, experiencing God's salvation.  You prefer to
reserve this term for those who have experience the totality of
salvation the Apostolic way.  We have the same goal, making disciples to
Jesus the Apostolic way.  We're just expressing it and going about it in
a different way!

God bless you Brother Clifton!  Your insights are always important to
me!  

Steve