MY Call? Shouldn't it be GOD'S Call?

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On Sun, 25 Oct 1998 01:01:52 -0300 Frank Vandenburg <acts238@nbnet.nb.ca>
writes:

>Bros. Jerry and Steven:
>My point in this post is to agree with what you said and then tell 
>you why you are wrong. If that makes sense to you then you probably 
>don't need to read further :-)

Wow!  That's quite an opening!!!  :)

>The New Testament does place limitations on the role of women in 
>church leadership. 

Real quick, to "Bottom Line" it, would you agree with the following:

Women cannot be in a position of spiritual authority over a mixed
congregation.

>First of all we need to learn to spell. Paul wrote "I suffer not a 
>woman to TEACH." This topic goes on and on about women 
>preaching. 

Only because the modern definition of "Preaching" includes spiritual
authority over a mixed gender congregation.

>Preaching in the New Testament is the presentation of a collection of 
>facts to an individual or group, so that upon reception of these facts,
they 
>can make a decision, preferably the one desired by the "preacher."

I am using "Preacher" and "Pastor" as it is today a role of spiritual
authority over a congregation.  I do not believe that we can ignore 1
Timothy 2:12 with this in mind.

>John preached repentance unto the house of Israel, Paul preached the
Gospel to the Gentiles. 
>Preaching is always directed at those who have not heard or are not part
of the 
>group.

But I would still feel uncomfortable if a woman were doing "Crusades" ala
Billy Graham.  Witnessing to others around her?  No problem, but "taking
it on the road"?  I would be more hesitant about that, because she
inevitably would be invited to a Church.

>First women can pray and prophesy (1COR 11). How this relates to 
>Paul's admonition for women to keep silent in the church is unclear and 
>different views have been raised. 

Since the Bible does not contradict itself, this should be an easy one. 
The women who were enjoined to be silent OBVIOUSLY could not have been
the same women who were prophesying or praying, therefore, it is my
opinion that the scripture should be taken at face value.  If women are
"just" sitting in the congregation and they have a question, they should
wait and ask it later.  If a woman is prophesying or praying, they are in
the Will of God and that has nothing to do with them asking their husband
a question in the middle of the service, so they should be allowed to
pray or prophesy.

>What is clear is that they are permitted this activity as members of the

>body of Christ. We read numerically of more female prophets 
>in the New Testament than male. Also the ministry of prayer is open to 
>them.Women may also function as deacons. The word used of Phoebe in 
>Romans is the female form of the Greek word for deacon. I believe this
ties in 
>with Paul's discussion of the widows' order in the Patorals, but more
about 
>that later.

I would agree.

>The big question is can women preach. As I said, preaching in New 
>Testament times carried a different connotation than today.

And to make sure that you understand where I am at, I do believe that
women can "preach" as the New Testament definition as provided by you
states.  In today's terms I think it would be called "Witnessing" and I
don't know anyone who thinks that women should not be able to witness to
others.

>The two examples we will consider are the woman at the well and
Priscilla. 
>The woman at the well came face to face with Jesus and had His 
>Messiahship revealed to her. She then ""testified" to those of her 
>city and "many...believed" because of that testimony (John 4:39-42). 

I have never said and do not believe, that testifying or, as I would say
in this case, witnessing to others should be restricted to only males. 
That clearly is not the case.  EVERYONE should witness to others.

>Priscilla "expounded" (ektithemi, one of the wors used for "to 
>declare") unto him the way of God along with Aquila her husband.

Again, this is personal witnessing, not what I would term, nor recognize
as "Preaching".

>We must keep in mind that at this point Apollos was not in the 
>church, and after his coming into the church we do notread of 
>such an "expounding" going on again.

I think we are saying the same thing, but you are just saying it better. 
: )

>What I draw from this is that the rules are different depending on the 
>audience. Paul in 1Timothy 2:12, binds teaching to usurping authority, 

Actually, he says "teach OR usurp authority over the man" which I
understand then as two separate things that are prohibited.

>in the context of church government. It was acceptable for the Samaitan
woman 
>to testify to the lost Samaritans of her experience with Christ and move

>them to belief. 

Correct, just as it is acceptable for any woman today to witness (it is
my personal opinion that witnessing is if we tell those outside the
Church what God has done for us, while testifying is what we tell those
inside the Church what God has done).  Perhaps that is not "THE"
definition, but that is how I see it, and neither one of those would meet
my qualification of what we are saying "Preaching" as it is used TODAY:
Ministering to a mixed gender crowd of a local assembly.

>A woman may testify to those who are lost or share the facts of Christ 
>or salvation with the lost, regardless of gender. 

I would agree.  But as you have said, "Preach" doesn't mean the same now
as it did then.

Let me restate this then for inclusion of your provided New Testament
definition:

I do not believe that women are Called of God to preach as it is
understood today.

I DO believe that every Christian is called to witness to others outside
the Body of Christ.

>Scripture speaks plainly about those who would have women as teachers of
the 
>entire church body, or those who would function in the role of pastors.
It is 
>wrong.

I, of course, agree.
 
>What of the examples of Pentecostal women who "preached" with success? 
>Well, if we consider the history of many of them, we see that the
majority of 
>their ministry consisted of teaching sisters or sharing with the lost,
both 
>of which are approved activities. 

Again, I wholeheartedly agree.

>As far as when they went beyond the biblical boundries, I feel that 
>we as the church must accept some of the blame for that 
>by reason of having left unrestored the vehivle for women's ministry.

But that is not in any way justification for such actions, but  it IS
something that needs to be addressed immediately.

>Paul, i 1Timothy 5:3-16 and Titus 2:3-5, outlines God's plan for 
>women's ministry inside the church. Those women who are elder, 
>freed from the ministry to husband and family, 

Which is not "just" a ministry, but God's designed and stated Will.

>Yet this is ignored in the Pentecostal church today, while the 
>paying of pastors gets a fair bit of attention.

Quite a bit of attention, as our earlier thread of tithing and my
personal experiences have clearly shown.

>These widows are to be a round-the clock prayer team, praying for the 
>church and its members, showing hospitality to visitors and teaching the

>younger women in the church. This is so contrary to what often happens
today where 
>the younger women end up in the roles of nursery workers, Sunday school 
>teachers, etc, when they should still be learning and serving their own 
>families.

I hadn't thought of that.

>In Titus we read about the curriculum that they are to teach: to be 
>sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet,
chaste, 
>keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the Word of
God might 
>not be blasphemed. 

Some of THAT is sure not being taught these days.  ;)

>These Godly women can share their experiences and wisdom (indeed 
>the Greek word here rendered teach literally means "to share wisdom") 
>with those who most need, who are just discovering the chalenges of 
>marriage, parenthood, and what unique temptations and struggles lie in
wiat for 
>those who would desire to be Godly women. This ministry would relieve
much of 
>the  counselling burden from the elders' shoulders in a church and
reduce 
>the need for preaching cetain topics 

Not only THAT, but it would eliminate the situations where women go to
the male Pastor for counseling, which at best is an awkward situation
that has led to bad situations...

>I believe that by not restoring this branch of the ministry and thus 
>permitting women to fulfill a called, godly ministry that is uniquelt
theirs, 
>we have caused discontent in the church and promoted the spread of 
>such habits as gossip and backbiting.

That's good thinking.  Not only that, but to deny to assist in a woman's
rightful ministry, they have sought their own ministry.

>We have denied women the opportunity to share their wisdom in a 
>recognized setting, to be mentors and role models and to contibute to
the 
>spiritual growth of the body by producing Godly children and being at
peace with their 
>spouses.

THAT is missing these days as well . . .

>It is organizational sin on the part of the modern Pentecostal church 
>to allow this portion of New Testament truth to continue to fall by the 
>wayside.

This is good meat, Brother.  Clearly an aspect of this thread that I have
not heard before or even considered.

>Ladies groups do not meet this need. They are comprised of all ages and
are 
>not supported. The argument that we do not need to support widows
because 
>the governemtn does so doesn't cut it any more than the suggestion that
we 
>do not have to pay the ministry because welfare is available.

Scrooge once said that...

>I'll stop here. I hope I've done more than just get both sides mad at 
>me. 

: )

>I pray you'll consider what I've written and use it to make corrections 
>to your position before the discussion continues. 

Most definitely.  

But let me again make myself perhaps more clear.  The lynchpin that I am
stressing is TODAY'S definition of Preaching, and that is either teaching
or spiritually ministering to a mixed gender crowd of believers and
non-believers and I do not believe that women are scripturally sanctioned
for such a position.

>One other issue that hasn't been addressed by today's Pentecostal 
>movement is the fact that the ability to  communicate is not farther 
>reaching than in Paul's day. How does his injunction against teaching 
>apply to such iten\ms as books, tapes and Web sites? 

I would say that the same "rules" apply.  That to set up a web site for
deliberately teaching a mixed gender crowd would be outside the stated
Will of God.  If a woman wrote a book specifically to minister to both
men and women, again, I believe she would be out of the stated Will of
God.  

This is why I like your posts.  I always learn something.

Thanks.

Jerry Welch
ICQ: 18489712
www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/2810/

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