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Josh ALLEN wrote:

ME:
> Great to see you back with the ole' message <s>.  I'm glad that you
> are back on "speaking terms" with the list :) 

I hope I've always remained on speaking terms with the list.  My hiatus
was caused by the need to do a lot of reading for a graduate program.  I
have a monster of a reading list that I need to complete in the next
year and have to budget my time.  But this list is very important to
me.  Kinda like reality therapy! And the Bishop's epistle has been
churning in my mind for over a month.  I guess you could say that I am
venting!
 
Brother Josh:

I do realize that *I*
> lose a lot of meaning with the various offshoots of your sentences...
> and at times, it seems that you are Bill Clinton at his grand jury
> testimony...constantly avoiding questions or accusations with flowery
> legal terms. 

I can understand how you feel Brother Josh.  I have not tried to avoid
answering questions but rather to help shape the questions which are
being asked.  Let me explain.  As Christians we should not only allow
the Bible to shape our answers to theological questions but to shape the
theological questions themselves.  This means allowing the Bible to
control every aspect of our thinking.  Let me give you an example using
the question of salvation.  In my exposition of salvation found in
"Salvation the Pentecostal Way"  I tried to demonstrate from the book of
Acts that Luke had a very broad and dynamic conception of salvation. 
For Luke, salvation was not the mechanistic obedience to a formula like
Acts 2:38 but participation in the reign (kingdom) of God.  Luke saw the
reality of God's salvation present in many different ways.  Now, if this
is Luke's theology of salvation, and I sincerely believe it is, then
Apostolic questions about salvation should be shaped and molded by this
theology.  Apostolics should be asking "How are other Christians
participating in the reign of God and experiencing God's salvation?" 
Instead, Apostolic questions about salvation are shaped and molded by
American Protestant Fundamentalist theology and common sense
philosophy.  This theology begins with the pre-understanding that
salvation is received through obedience to a precise formula and
proceeds to the conclusion that all who have not obeyed this formula
have not experienced salvation.  Following this theology the question
Apostolics ask other Christians is "Have you obeyed our Salvation
formula?"  The conclusion which follows is "If not you are lost!"

It is obvious that I do not follow Fundamentalist theology or ideology. 
The problem my conversation partners on higher-fire are having with my
posts is that they are uncomfortable with presentations of the Apostolic
faith which do not follow this theology or ideology.  I am not trying to
avoid answering questions.  I am saying that in many cases the questions
are wrong, need to be restated from a Biblical perspective, and
answered.

>Brother Josh:

> Sorry, but again, I see this Clinton (I hope I am not insulting you
> by using this analogy) speech...."I refer back to my original
> statement" which, if had been made clear, would not be questioned.
> Again, you simply mean that other Christians are just as saved as we--
> so I ask, what's the point of being "TRULY" saved if any experience
> will do it?  Why did Jesus have to go in order to baptize us with the
> Holy Ghost if we didn't really need it?  And, why be crucified if our
> "real experiences" through the law would do it?

I was totally disgusted by Bill Clinton's grand jury testimony Brother
Josh.  The difference between me and Bill Clinton is that I am not
attempting to cover anything up.  I believe that other Christians
experience the reality of God's salvation.  No, they are not "saved" in
an Apostolic Pentecostal way, but their life and faith is oriented
toward Jesus Christ.  These Christians, like you, me, and all Apostolics
are called by God to follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit as He leads
and guides us into truth and to live a Christian life.  Have you ever
had a denominational Christian you witnessed to be baptized in Jesus
name and receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit?   It is exciting!  It
leaves me in tears, especially when they chronicle how God's hand has
been upon their life for many years guiding them into the fullness of
Apostolic salvation.  The difference between me and you Brother Josh is
that I want to maximize every experience of God's grace in Jesus Christ,
his salvation, and utilize them as tool for sharing my faith.  I don't
want to "trash" the work of the Holy Spirit in guiding others into the
truth.  It is very demeaning to other Christians to question the reality
of their salvation experiences and their faith in Jesus Christ.   We
need to rejoice that God is at work in their lives, demonstrate the
reality of Christ in our lives, and be patient as we share the Apostolic
Gospel with them.

 
> Brother Josh:

> Not sure what you mean here....eccumunical unity implies that we
> unite with Catholics, Baptists, Assemblies of God, etc.  In so doing,
> we COMPLETELY lost our identity with Christ and salvation (Salvation
> being the ONE, NARROW path that Christ, not man, teaches) by
> advocating a false God (Trinity) and a false baptism.  However, if
> you mean unity among apostolics, I agree completely.  But, I don't
> think that joining an organization (AWFC) will do that.  And, I don't
> think that Christ intended such "downsizing" of the church into one
> organization--In fact, I have my doubts even about my "bless-ed" UPC
> :)  As the Apostolic church continues (or at least a faction of the
> UPC and the AWFC) to move away from the local assembly which has
> complete autonomy and is the body of Christ, to a large "fellowship"
> of authoritative organizations, a red light goes off in my head. 

Ecumenism does not mean doctrinal unity or the loss of Apostolic
identity.  Ecumenism means acknowledging the commonalties of the
Christian faith Apostolic possess with others and engaging in a dialogue
about our differences.  Why are Apostolics afraid of such a dialogue?  I
suppose it is because to many Apostolics have become so enamored with
the faith and theology of other Christians that they convert!  They
think there is "greener grass" in the world of respectable
denominations.  Personally, I don't see any "greener grass".  They are
struggling with many of the same issues as the Apostolic movement.  The
only difference is that they want to talk about the problems they are
facing rather than ignoring them in the hopes that they will not be
seen.

Lets face it Brother Josh, whether we like it or not our faith is going
to judged by greater Christendom, the academic academy, and the public. 
If they are interacting with our faith, making judgments and evaluations
which are influencing the understanding of others about our faith,
shouldn't we at least listen to what they are saying?  If we want to
influence others in an Apostolic Pentecostal way shouldn't we at least
try to understand their faith and offer informed criticisms?  Is the
Apostolic Pentecostal faith really so indefensible that we need to
separate ourselves from other Christians in order to maintain its
integrity?  I think not!  


> Brother Josh:
>   I encourgage Apostolic to move on any common ground that
> they can with Catholics.  But, let's not leave out the similarities
> with Mormons that we have, Jews, Baptists, Assemblies of God, etc.
> But, the fact still remains that we have more in common with
> catholics and mormons than we do with, say, Lutherans!

I perceive thou art somewhat sarcastic in this passage!  We could,
however, expand this list to include non-Christian religions, Buddhism,
Confucianism, Islam, etc. Paul's sermon  in Athens makes it very clear
that the religious yearnings of humankind are directed toward
discovering "The Unknown God", Jesus Christ.  The difference between
Paul and alot of Apostolics is that  he chose the way of dialogue with
the Athenians.  If Apostolics are being critisized for dialoguing with
Catholics they will probably be crucified for dialoguing with non
Christian religions. Why?  Because Apostolics wrongly equate dialogue
with blind acceptance of anothers religious beliefs.

> Brother Josh:

> I could go on, but I will allow brother Steve to elaborate at will.
> BUT, does this mean that we must JOIN them on this common ground?
> NO!!!  Should we become UNIFIED on this common ground?  NO!!!

Brother Josh, if you read their books, listen to their sermons, and sing
their songs, you have already acknowledged that common ground exists. 
You are united with them on this common ground!  But this does not mean
assimilation and the loss of Apostolic identity.  Rather, it means
affirming a common Christian identity as we retain our unique Christian
identities and  live our distinctive Christian lives in the world.

> Brother Josh:
 
> Remember that Satan knows more about God that most trinitarians do--
> He believes in one God too...but why unite with him because of it?
> And why downplay the importance of a barrier between the church of
> Jesus Christ and that of satan?  

You've had some really good questions and thoughts in this post Brother
Josh.  I am disappointed that you choose to end it with personal attacks
on the faith of others.  As I proceed with my examination of Bishop
Smith's epistle I am going to point out how the Bishop uses what I call
"generic" anthems to support his position that Apostolics should not be
in dialogue with Catholics.  What is a generic anathema?  It is saying
that you opponent is "deceived", "fallen away", a "compromiser", a
"liberal", et. al. without really examining their faith.  Generic
anathema's are great stuff for revivals and camp meetings where they are
proclaimed with passion to reinforce the faith of a movement's core of
"true believers" and to instill fear in the hearts and minds of those
challenging the movement's expression of its faith.  However, all to
often they have no biblical or historical basis.  They are part of a
body of Christian folklore which has been passed down from generation to
generation and accepted as true without critical examination.  We need
to move beyond the folklore  and really understand what people believe. 
This is what dialogue is all about.

God bless brother Steve--and I've
> really enjoyed the last posts!

God Bless you Brother Josh!  Believe it or not I am just as committed to
the Apostolic faith as you are.  There is no better way to be a
Christian!  Fellowshipping with a plethora of "mainliners" at  my
seminar in Indiana has given me a renewed appreciation for the Apostolic
faith.  Although I may be critical I desire to be  loyal to the life and
faith instilled in me by my Apostolic grandmother and my Apostolic
mentors. I appreciate your criticisms and prayers!

Steve