My Call(was Feminine Mystique)

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On Sun, 25 Oct 1998 08:10:58 -0500 "Caryle Clear" <cpcj@sprynet.com>
writes:

>[Bro. Jerry]:
>>But I cannot say scripturally that she has The Call.
>
>[Anneliese now]:
>That is rather easy to say when one has not personally heard the 
>testimony concerning "The Call" (using caps like you did, although the
scripture 
>does not use caps).  

Nice stories and dramatic experiences, if they contradict the Word of
God, are of no spiritual use.

And as for capitalizing the Call, it is my personal preference, as I
believe a Call to be of Divine origin.

>Also, I do recall a man by the name of Joel, who wrote "your
>sons and your daughters shall prophesy"...same word, men and women.

But if you believe that means preach as we understand the term today,
then the BIble is contradicting itself, since the New Testament and
history says that just didn't happen.

>>>[Anneliese before]:
>>>My pastor asked Sis. Doughty to speak as well on Sat.
>>>nite & Sun. for the whole church because her ministry is so 
>>>powerful and uplifting, it does good for everyone to hear it.
>
>[Bro. Jerry]:
>>I'm sure that we can have MEN who, for instance, are polygamists who 
>>can also say powerful and uplifting things, but they also should not be
>>allowed to Preach because it is not Biblically allowed.
>
>[Anneliese now]:
>I'm afraid I have to end this conversation now, as you have just 
>proceeded to insult my pastor and his decision making ability 
>concerning how he handles administration of his Office 
>(Pastor of our church).  

No insult was intended.  I am just speaking of a Biblical stand that has
been ignored in recent times for the sake of political correctness.  My
point was that regardless of what we mortals see as a "good result", it
doesn't matter to God.  I did not even mention your Pastor.

If you talk to someone who goes to, say a Baptist Church, and you are
witnessing to them about Jesus' name baptism, are you insulting their
Pastor?

And if you say things counter to what my Pastor teaches, am I to assume
that you are insulting MY Pastor?  

If not, then how can you think that I am insulting YOUR Pastor?  Is this
just an easy way to get out of a discussion?

Two men tried to burn strange incense in the OT.  Perhaps they thought it
smelled nicer to them.  To God, it was a STENCH and they DIED for
introducing it in His Temple.  No, I am not saying that God is going to
strike anyone dead.  I AM saying that this is not what WE want or what WE
think is right.  It's GOD'S ministry and He takes this seriously...

HE makes the Calls, we don't.

"Outcome Based Ministering" (especially when the Outcome is based on the
perception of MORTALS) is not Biblical.  It is, in my opinion, dangerous.

>[Bro. Jerry]:
>>The bottom line is, just because someone claims to be called to 
>Preach, if they fail to meet the qualifications in the Bible, I cannot
say 
>they are really called.
>
>Aside from mere physical attributes such as "maleness", and physical
>relationships such as "monogamy" and "heterosexuality", you have not 
>cited any specific Biblical *Spiritual* criteria to qualify one as
*truly* 
>being "called".  

Since this is specifically a discussion about GENDER, then "maleness" is
entirely pertinent to the very discussion.

1 Timothy 3 gives VERY specific criteria that CANNOT be met by women.

Answer these for me, please:

* Can a woman be "the husband of one wife"?  (1 Timothy 3:2)

* Can a women "ruleth well his house"? (1 Timothy 3:4)

If not, (and without supporting lesbianism and the woman usurping
authority over the man there is NO WAY you can say that a woman can meet
these criteria) then women DO NOT QUALIFY.

You said below that monogamy was ample reason to deny a claim to ministry
(referring to the "husband of one wife" scripture) so you believe that
one scripture ample enough reason to deny such a claim.

I have given that same scripture and another one as well that women
simply cannot comply with.

Note the very language of 1 Timothy 3; it says "he" in EVERY situation
where gender is used.  NEVER does it say "she".  Why?  Because women are
mentioned in chapter 5...

How is the Church leadership referred to in the Bible?  As "the
BRETHREN", not "the SISTERS", not even as "the brethren and the sisters".

>I agree that one must be monogamous because there are specific 
>scriptures, 

Use the scripture in its context, please.  The scripture is not about
monogamy; it is specifically "the husband of one wife".  "MALE monogamy"
if you want, but not just "monogamy".

It SPECIFICALLY says "the HUSBAND of one WIFE", not "the WIFE of one
HUSBAND".

>that directly relate to pastoral Offices concerning this issue. I agree 
>that one must be heterosexual because the state of being 
>homosexual is fundamentally an abomination.

I, of course, agree on this point.

Jesus chose twelve disciples to spread His Word.  All men.  Jesus used
these men to speak for Him in the New Testament.  The women He was
associated with were not spiritual leaders.  Not ONE.

The Authors of the Bible?  All men.  God used these men to speak for Him
in BOTH the Old and New Testament.  
The women mentioned in the Bible?  None of them were spiritual leaders. 
NOT ONE.

God did not design women to be head of the man.  Nowhere in the Bible
will you find a woman being a spiritual leader over men.  The notion that
women can Preach or Pastor over men is in direct violation of the Word of
God.

>But I do not see direct scriptural references that *forbid* women to 
>preach, or to hold certain Offices based *solely* on her femaleness with
*no* 
>other restrictions at all.

You just referred to one!  (Male monogamy)

Again, can you answer with a simple "Yes" or "No" these two questions?

Can she be the HUSBAND of one wife?  Can she "rule his own house"?

The Bible is CLEARLY talking about men only when it refers to spiritual
leadership.  

It's not a popular stand, but that's not the point.  It doesn't HAVE to
be popular.

It just has to be God's Will.

It is up to US to conform to IT, not the other way around.

>On the contrary, I do see prohibition *only*  when the local culture 
>had certain restrictions placed upon women which had nothing
>to do with preaching in particular, but rather with the role of women 
>in general.

This is what I believe your error to be.  To insinuate that the Bible is
useful for doctrine, reproof, etc. ONLY when it matches your culture, is
incorrect.    

Some people have tried to say that to also do away with Biblical doctrine
of long hair for women.  It was a "cultural thing".  Homosexuality?  Oh,
that was a "homophobic" culture.

Sister, > > > ALL < < < scripture is given by the INSPIRATION OF GOD and
is profitable for 

- DOCTRINE

* Therefore it is God's Doctrine that women not teach or usurp authority
over the man

- for REPROOF

* Therefore God is reproving through His Word any who claim otherwise

- for CORRECTION

* Therefore God is using His Word to correct false teachings

- for INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS

* God is using His Word to TEACH the way that He means. and WE cannot
change that.  Therefore, to live RIGHTEOUSLY, we have to follow His Word.
 And to live COUNTER to His Word is to live in UNrighteousness.

That is not what Jerry Welch is saying, that is what the BIBLE says.

>But, we've been down this road before, and I daresay neither side
>will convince the other because *both* sides can use Bible to back up 
>their claims.

Really?  I have not seen ONE verse that shows a woman being a spiritual
leader, either as a Priest in the OT or as a Preacher/Pastor in the NT.

Can you show me JUST ONE VERSE?

On ONE side of this issue, you have the Bible and historical records that
do not show women with spiritual authority over men in the early Church;
on the other, you have a modern political movement that has dubious
spiritual ties, at best.

I'll stand with the Word.

>And, that having been said, I end my involvement with this tangent of 
>this thread.

Why even make a comment if you are not able to respond to the thread?

I have seen that happen on this thread (women Preachers/Pastors) so many
times. 

"(For whatever reason) I will not post anymore to you about this subject.
 But before I go, let me say..."

Why is that, I wonder?  

IF God has Called you, He has called you to stand, and having done all to
stand, STAND, not run.

Jerry Welch
ICQ: 18489712
www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/2810/

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