My Call? Shouldn't it be GOD'S Call?

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> But if you believe that means preach as we understand the term 
>today,  then the Bible is contradicting itself, since the New Testament
and
> history says that just didn't happen.
>  >>
>     May I first say that you are using a technique called circular 
>reasoning.

No it is an argument based upon looking at a claim (women can be
preachers as we recognize in the modern definition) and seeing if either
the Bible or history supports that claim.

Neither do.

Also, I will not start from square one with every post.

I have been debating for nearly a decade and am familiar with debating
weaknesses.  

Circular logic would be saying "This object is worth twenty dollars.  Why
is it worth twenty dollars?  Because I have deemed it worth twenty
dollars."  In circular logic, no lynch pin in the argument can ever stand
by itself.  

My argument is CLEARLY not circular, since I can make the successful
claim that history shows us that women were not given spiritual authority
in the Early New Testament Church.  That, as a historical fact, will
stand regardless whatever else I may say or introduce into the
discussion.

Circular logic cannot do that.  In my example, the very root of the
argument, the worth of the object, is directly dependant upon the
acceptance of both claims.  

Neither claim stands by itself with any recognized authority apart from
the same claim.

>You are basing an output, 

No, I am SHOWING the output of what actually occured in history and what
actually is stated in the Bible.

>on your own preconceived notions, rather than presenting valid evidence.
 

Such as history and the Bible?  What is more valid evidence?

>To simply say "xyz is not true because xyz does not exist," is not 
>sufficient proof.  

But to say "xyz is against the Word of God because in Book/Chapter:Verse
it says it is", followed by "historically that is what happened" IS
sufficient proof.  And that is what I have done, and it is not circular
logic.

Perhaps you would care to present either Biblical or Historical proof
AGAINST my stand on this issue?

I have been waiting since Day One for such proof...

And I have yet to see evidence of a woman spiritual leader over a Church
in the Early New Testament.

I am looking for the Verse where Paul instructs "the Sisters that lead
the Church at Corinth" or wherever...

>So I am saying that your statement above is not a sufficient 
>contradiction to what she has presented.

By itself, no, but I don't care to repeat myself every time I post and I
am directly alluding to my former posts.  I put a lot of effort into
these posts and I shouldn't have to start from square one in every post.

>I don't have the time right now to give you all of the Greek and 
>Hebrew terms.  

You don't have to.  The FACT is that Biblically and historically, women
did not have spiritual authority over men in the Early New Testament
Church.

>But I have studied it in the past

At any time, Brother, have you studied about women who had spiritual
authority over a congregation of men in the Early New Testament Church?

>and I will assure you that the same terms that are used for male
preachers are also used for female 
>preachers.

They are also both called human, butI hope you would recognize a
difference there, right?  The responsibilities of the various offices are
also different.  You simply cannot show me one example in either the
Bible or history (during the early Church of the Apostles) where a woman
had spiritual authority over men.

What is the Greek word for "brethren"?  Does it include women?  If not,
then why was the leadership of the Church, when referred to by gender,
always called brethren?

How can a woman "usurp authority over the man" if the man didn't have the
authority to begin with?

>     Tell me this.  What is the meant by Joel in chapter 2 when it 
>says that the men and women shall prophesy?  

That the men and women shall prophesy.  Note Peter when he quoted Joel 2
in Acts chapter two.  He said that the crowd of people should accept that
the prophesy of Joel was happening right then before their very eyes! 
Peter said  "this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel"!  He said
that they were prophesying THEN!  

Were the women gathering groups of people and preaching to them?  No.
They were speaking in tongues and magnifying God!!!

>May I just remind you,  that Peter's Greek quotation of this passage in
Joel,  
>found in Acts uses the same term that is translated as preach.  

So therefore, unless you are saying the Bible contradicts itself, or,
more specifically, that Peter didn't know what he was talking about, or
was plainly wrong in what he was saying, you have to agree with Peter
that the sons and daughters were prophesying right then.

>You are attempting to make a difference in this one Greek word,  when
the 
>original text makes none.  

No, I am recognizing what it means by taking them in context with what
happened.

>Any knowledgeable preacher will tell you that in the New Testament,  
>the word prophesy most always refers to preaching.  

Bottom line: Are you trying to tell me that Paul had women preachers
and/or pastorettes in the Churches he started?

Please give me a "Yes/No" and then your explanation...

>Preaching is the forth-telling of Gods word.

And, using Brother Frank's excellent post (have you read it yet?), it is
not the definition of Preaching that exists today.  The preaching then
always referred to people who were not in the Body of Christ.  We would
call it "witnessing" today.

Today, Preaching is either teaching or ministering to a mixed gender
congregation...and it is THAT definition of "Preaching" that I am talking
about.  Not witnessing or testifying, like the woman at the well did.

>What do you call the judge Deborah?  Chop Suey?  She was the one 
>who dominated two of the chapters of the book of Judges.

And Samson "dominated" three.  I guess he "out Judged" Deborah because he
had more chapters?  What does the quantity of chapters have to do with
spiritual authority?  Saul "dominated" more chapters than Deborah.  Guess
he "out spiritually authoritated" her, huh...

Who was High Priest at this time?  Was it a woman?  How about the
Priests?  Do you have any examples of women Priests in the Old Testament?

>May I just say that she was even a leader in this,  

She was a POLITICAL LEADER in that.

>for most of the judges weren't given more than a passing mention.  
>A few measly verses.  But for her,  much was said.  

If you do know anything about debating weaknesses then you realize that
quantity of an occurance has nothing to do with the QUALITY of the
occurance, much less the specifics of an occurance.

Quantity can only be argued in the context of the number of occurances,
unless it is specifically stated that quantity is a determinative factor,
as in a poll.

>She was Judge over Israel.  Sounds like a Spiritual leadership position
to me. 

Sounds like a political position to me.

Did she lead the nation spiritually?  Did she go to the Temple
and...whoops!  Women WEREN'T ALLOWED inside the deeper part of the
Temple.

Why?  

If they were allowed to be spiritually above men, someone didn't tell
God...

> And besides Samuel (you know,  Hannah's anointed son),  she was the
only 
>other judge that was also a prophet.

No, at best you can say that "she was the only other judge that was also
a prophetess THAT WE KNOW ABOUT"

And no one here has said anything against women being prophetesses...but
that is not Preaching as we understand the term today, NOR is it
Pastoring.

>Or shall we say prophetess?  

To be accurate, you should.

>May I just say that Barak was subject unto her.

By bringing up Deborah, are you attempting to insinuate that she is the
template for women being spiritual leaders over men in the New Testament?
 Because if you're not, it has no other application to this issue...

>He respected her position and also her spiritual leadership.  If you
don't believe it,  read your bible.  
>It's all there in black and white.  Through her,  a mighty victory was
won for 
>Israel. 

And?  There were mighty victories won for Israel by Saul...does that mean
that I could claim that he was a Prophetess?

>She even sang a song of victory,  just like Moses did before her.  It 
>was the only other song,  besides Moses's,  that I have seen like it.

Has anyone said anything against women singing?

Was the recording of her song of victory in any way God saying that she
was the template for the New Testament Church allowing women to be
spiritual leaders over men?

>     Furthermore,  the bible does speak of other female spiritual 
>leaders.  And prophetesses.  To whom God instructed men to go to for
direction 
>and guidance.  Men of the old and new testaments excepted the spiritual 
>guidance given by women.  

And these New Testament examples are whom, exactly?

>That is,  if the woman was anointed by God.  They 
>were called prophetesses.

They were not Called to preach as we understand the term today, though,
were they?

Nor were they Called to Pastor or have spiritual authority over men, were
they?

>Read your bible and see if men did not go to them for spiritual
>and even sometimes military direction.  

Yeah, I missed the chapter where Paul told the men to go to women for
Spiritual instruction.  I keep seeing that women are to go to other women
for counsel...

>Excuse me for using this ethnic jargon.  But God don't give a hoot about
the vessel.

Yes He does.

Who represents Him in His ministry is VERY important to him,  otherwise
you have just attempted to void the entire Chapter of 1 Timothy 3...

>All he wants is somebody that's willing.  

There are homosexuals who are willing and claim that they are Called
while they live in sin.

Do you believe that they are Called IN SIN?

God DOES care.  It's HIS ministry, not ours.  

HE makes the rules.  

We obey.

And willing doesn't cut it as the "end all-be all" for the qualifications
of being Called to Preach or Pastor.

Would your Church qualify someone to be a Preacher or Pastor SIMPLY
because they are "willing"?

I would hope not!

>He don't care if the vessel is black or white.

Don't pull that old race card out.  I'm not playing...

>He don't care if the vessel is 90 or 10.  He don't care if the vessel is
crippled 
>or completely healthy.  He don't care if the vessel was a Jew or a 
>Gentile.  

This has a catchy beat!  : )

>College educated or from a 6th grade education.  A slave or a free 
>man.  He even caused a jack ass to speak his word.  

To an individual on one specific occasion.  Surely you wouldn't use that
as a valid example or else people would be trying to put jack asses
behind the pulpit, and no, I don't mean a double meaning there!!!  <G>

>So what in the world would make you believe that he won't use a woman.

His Word.  It says very plainly that Women cannot TEACH or usurp
authority over the man.  Therefore, the man has the authority. 
SPECIFICALLY WHO GAVE MAN THE AUTHORITY?

God.  It would take someone equal to or who has more authority than God
to override Him and I am not going to try.

God also gives TWO VERY IMPORTANT qualifications that women CANNOT meet
to be a Preacher; they CANNOT be the "husband of one wife" (unless you
support lesbianism as a righteous state of being in the Will of God), NOR
can they "rule over their own house" (unless you are saying that the
Bible is wrong when it states the head of the woman is man).

The rule of authority is NOT INTERCHANGEABLE.  It would be like saying
that men could be the spiritual authority over Christ.

This rule of authority is NOT MAN MADE, but from God and mortals simply
do not have the authority to change it, no matter how hard they want.

It would be like saying that you were not going to recognize the Law of
Gravity from now on.  You can make such a claim, but you have no
authority to enforce it...

>Earlier you said that using the verse in Joel must mean 
>something different or else it contradicts.  Actually I think it all
fits 
>together. 

Think what you will, but I am waiting for PROOF.  You can end this
quickly.  Show me an example of a women being the spiritual head over men
in the Church during the early New Testament Church.

That's all I ask for...show me that scripture where Paul introduces
Sister So and So to bring forth the Word to the Body of Christ.  Where
historical documents show that Paul set up Sister So and So as Pastor of
a Church he started.

>Women were going to somehow be allowed to preach on a more consistent 
>basis. 

They were?  According to whom?

>But at some point in the future.  After Pentecost.  

Where did you get all this from?  After Pentecost women were not
Preaching to Churches; at least not in the Early Church.

>Once Pentecost had fully come,  spiritually,  we are all on equal
footing.  

Really?  Why it is in the New Testament that it says "the head of woman
is the man".  It is in the New Testament where it says that women cannot
teach or usurp authority over the man (which CLEARLY indicates who has
been given the authority to usurp in the first place!).

>Hence our  background and physical state makes no difference.  It is all
about the spirit.

What does the spirit have to do with a man having more than one wife? 
What does the spirit have to do with being a novice?

>I will be addressing this issue again when I have more time.  I will
just say that this is one of my BIGGEST pet >peeves.

I can tell.

>Simply,  because I personally know of many anointed women of God.  

By YOUR estimation, not God's.  And there is a difference between
anointed and Called...

I believe that I am anointed from time to time, but I do not believe that
I am Called to Preach.

>Women that can out-preach 90% of all male preachers that I have ever
heard.  

"Out preach"?  Do you think this is some kind of CONTEST?  This is the
Ministry of GOD we are talking about, not speech class!  It is not up to
MORTALS to decide what is best for God's ministry.  HE has set the
qualifications and terms and it is up to US to conform to THEM, not the
other way around.

WOULDN"T YOU AGREE???

Please, if you don't answer anything else in this letter, please answer
that...

Remember the men who introduced strange incense in the Temple in the Old
Testament?  They probably thought that it smelled better; or, using your
terminology, "our incense  "out-smells" the incense that they are giving
God now", so, using our human reasoning, God would be happier with our
incense, but what happend to them?  Mortals do not know the mind of God. 
How arrogant are we to assume that we know better than God Almighty what
is best for His ministry?  How dangerous is it to supercede Biblical
requirements for our personal wants and desires?

His Word has already stated the qualifications, as you have said, "IN
BLACK AND WHITE".

How can you ignore those scriptures?

>Women with more faith than any man I have ever witnessed.  

Then perhaps you don't get out much, because Hebrews 11 mentions over a
dozen men, but only two women.

>Women whose lives have been dedicated to pleasing God and
>spreading his word.

Is this some kind of "women are holier than men" post?  

Do you recognize scriptural roles of authority?  

Let me ask you to complete this scripture:

"The head of woman is ___ ____."

I read it.  It found it "in black and white" in my Bible.

>Women who have rendered the ultimate service,  which is
>leading souls to Jesus Christ.  

So have men.  And no one here has said that women can't witness or
testify, to the best of my knowledge.

>How dare anybody question there call to preach?

Yeah, how dare the Apostle Paul do that...they should be able to have a
wife of their own and women should be able to "rule their own house",
because "if they know not how to rule their own house, how shall she take
care of the Church of God?"

>After all they have done for the upbuilding of the kingdom.  

They do nothing.  Men do nothing.  It is CHRIST who brings the resulys.  

We minister in the areas that God has given for us to minister in and it
is not for us to complain about where God put us.  I am not Called to
Preach, therefore, regardless how badly I wanted to Preach ( I don't,
btw), it would be WRONG for me to Preach.  Preaching and Pastoring are
not simply jobs you apply for.  It is (or at least should be) a result of
a Call from God.  I know there are men who have not been Called and try
to preach.  They may even "out-preach" those men who ARE Called, but you
know what?  I don't believe they are in the Will of God, either.

The results are not what WE see, or what WE want, but what God wants and
what God sees.

>And the best we can do is sit around and talk about "their not anointed
or 
>called."

Actually, I quote the BIBLE and HISTORY.  Can you do either?

Do you have any historical proof of women having spiritual authority in
the Early New Testament Church?

Again, I cannot imagine Paul introducing Sister So and So to "bring the
Word tonight"...

>Shame on us. Forgive me for being so crass.  But I hate this about some 
>brothers.  

Then that is something that you need to work on, Brother Marlon, because
regardless of the fact that I strongly disagree with you on this issue, I
would never begin to consider my view of you as hatred.

>And I am a brother myself.  But I know for a fact that some women 
>preachers have helped me to grow in Christ. 

The people who attend that supposed Pentecostal Church in Dallas that
ordains gays have said the same thing.  But should we accept something as
in the Will of God simply because they have made a claim or should we
measure it against the Word of God and see if it complies?

If it doesn't fit with the Word of God, you should not support it.

>Jesus said,  If they aren't working against us, then they must be for
us.

So, using your logic, those homosexuals I mentioned earlier who claim to
be Called?  They are FOR US and we must leave them alone?  After all, you
said that their background and status don't matter...

>So he told his Apostles to leave them alone. 

And how many women did Jesus choose as Apostles?

> I fear some of the "brethren"  are gonna find themselves in
condemnation 

Do you believe that Paul would have allowed women to Preach to mixed
gender congregations?

If not, then you are saying that He is burning in Hell...

You DID use the word "condemnation", which is a variation of the word
"damned", which is quite a strong term.

>when the word comes to them that says,  "Touch not mine anointed,  and
do my 
>'prophet' no harm."

That is taken out of context, even you must know that it refers to
physical harming...

This is quoted from an "Amen Post" from you to Sister Annaliese:

>     Excellent post.  You covered some of the verses that I have 
>studied in the past,  but just don't have the time to dig out again. 
When the 
>word is coupled with actual examples of Godly women in leadership
positions,  
>it becomes all too clear that women can be,  and are,  called by God too

>preach.

Again, I have yet to see ONE SCRIPTURE where Paul instructed a Sister to
preach to a Church...

Jerry Welch
ICQ: 18489712
www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/2810/
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